Author Topic: "Bloody peasants..."  (Read 2811 times)

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2004, 09:26:05 AM »
Dowding: 1) I was paraphrasing from memory so I wouldn't use my account as an accurate depiction of Jones' conclusions

 Understood. But it is a common misconseption that people lived better under feudal system than under capitalism.

The war in France and the huge plague that preceeded the Peasant Revolt had thinned the population considerably. Perhaps that meant less land was needed for food production

 I am not sure that the war in France could have had a discenrnible effect on population - just consider the tiny size of the contemporary armies. Also, the british were famous for using high-quality mercenaries, not peasants.

 The plague did gave a great influence on speeding up the progress towards the liberty in wester civilisation.
 With population drastically dropping, there was competition betwee lords for peasants to work their land, so better and more liberal terms were offered.
 Money supply stayed the same while population dropped as well as production, so the inflation ensued and made position of feudal lords much weaker while the position of cities, merchants and industrialists was made much stronger.
 The Lord's expences were increasing while their revenues stayed basically fixed or dropped - so they got mortgaged to the capitalists and lost their influence or had to switch to modern economic practices.

3) You can buy the book of the series - it will probably answer some of your questions

 I will see if they offer the program on DVD on PBS. It sounds inetresting and no more factually incorrect that what they reach in school anyway. Thanks.

miko

Offline Dago

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2004, 09:36:33 AM »
What about the cart they pushed around while yelling "bring out your dead"?  :D


dago
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Offline fd ski

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2004, 09:57:53 AM »
Just in interest of clarify I'd like to state that UK was an exception rather then a rule. Serfs in eastern europe had very little rigths and were more comarable to slaves then subjects.

Offline straffo

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2004, 10:04:16 AM »
Like fd said , we  got the "Jacquerie" certainly for a reason.

Offline Ripsnort

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2004, 10:39:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
...which are usually based in fantasy rather than reality.


Man, is that relative to Miko's posts or WHAT!?! ;)

Offline SunTracker

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2004, 11:38:02 AM »
Very interesting sounding program.

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2004, 12:31:22 PM »
Curval: Miko...Jones is doing a show on what it was actually like to live as a peasant in those times.  I HOPE he stays well away from an economist's analysis...which are usually based in fantasy rather than reality.

 Don't be silly. You would be hard pressed to find a truthfull show on what it is actually like to live in our times. I constantly hear people and shows expressing views about conditions that I have personally observed that are not even close to reality.
 Even if Jones had a time-machine, that would not be a good reason for me to believe his show is historically correct just on your logic-intolerant say-so.

 How do you know whether what Jones is showing is "what it was actually like to live as a peasant in those times"? You've been there as a peasant? Had a revelation? At least I use economic theory (really the elementary arithmetics on available historical stats) to verify the historical research.

1. If I read about the population numbers exploding at the times where food was the limiting factor of population growth, I conclude that there was more food produced, not less - despite reduction of farmland.

2. If I read that it becomes profitable to keep millions of new sheep and provide clothes to millions of people, I conclude that most common people in those times were not only better fed but also better dressed for the income they earned than in jolly feudal times you like so much.

 Just go ahead and tell me those conclusions are my fantasies rather than realities.

 Do you find that kind of "economic analysis" is too confusing for you? Can't you verify so simple pair of syllogisms yourself without referring to your prejudice about "usual" economist's analysis?

 Just because you cannot find good economic science and only encounter pseudo-scientific fantasy-based crap passed on as "economist's analysis", it does not mean there is no real economic science out there. It only reflects on your inability or unwilingmess to find it.

 When people really want to find knowlege, they get education and learn to tell fantasy from science. The ignorants just sit there and claim that everything is crap and not worth knowing - because crap is exactly what they hear and see from their usuall sources. Of course the same ignorants will claim that anything their favorite talking head says if truth.
 Maybe you should turn off the boob tube and open a few books. Then your chances of finding real economics would increase.

 miko

Offline vorticon

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2004, 01:14:42 PM »
looks good...

Quote
How do you know whether what Jones is showing is "what it was actually like to live as a peasant in those times"? You've been there as a peasant? Had a revelation?


hmm...history is pretty well documented and thats what the thing is based off...documented history...and from that it is pretty safe to say that what he's showing is pretty close to what it was like...and economic theory doesnt work very well when you using modern economics on a much different time

Offline Boroda

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2004, 01:23:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
Just in interest of clarify I'd like to state that UK was an exception rather then a rule. Serfs in eastern europe had very little rigths and were more comarable to slaves then subjects.


Partially right.

Russian serfs were slowly turned down to slaves from almost free people they actually were in XIV-XV centuries.

First they were allowed to change places only on Yuri's day, then even Yuri's day was abandoned, then they turned into some kind of cattle...

But OTOH there nerver were such people as Cossaks in the West, I mean free people who don't pay taxes and only have to serve in the military with their own horse/weapons in times of war...

Offline Dago

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2004, 01:33:12 PM »
Just like Miko to position himself as an authority on this subject, as he does on every other one and then cast doubt that anyone else knows anything about any subject.

It must be lonely being the only smart person in his world, to be the only one who knows anything, who understands every subject.

Sheesh,

dago
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Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2004, 01:40:29 PM »
vorticon: hmm...history is pretty well documented and thats what the thing is based off...documented history...and from that it is pretty safe to say that what he's showing is pretty close to what it was like...

 History documenting that peasants lived off the feudal's largesse? That common people suffered rather than benefited and multiplied as a result of the end of feudalism? That landlords started growing sheep not because it became profitable to provide masses with cheap wool but just to spite unruly peasants?

 What kind of history documents that, the marxist history?
 Even Marx did not say he felt sad that the feudal system started to die.

  I read that the lords loved hunting in forests and fields but never read that they felt partial to sheep. Of course if some of them were great sheep lovers, I can see how it did not make it to the history books.... ;)

and economic theory doesnt work very well when you using modern economics on a much different time

 Come on, leave the general rhetorics aside and just read what I posted.
 What is so "modern" in my assumption that explosion of population despite reduction of farmed land ment increase of productivity and absolute food production?
 That presense of millions of sheep (supply of wool) indicates presence of millions of buyers willing and able to pay for the wool clothes (demand)?
 What's in those statements that did not work in the "much different time"?

 As for "economics theory" not working in different times in general, that's true about crappy false economic theories. But they do not work in modern times either.


Dago: Just like Miko to position himself as an authority on this subject, as he does on every other one and then cast doubt that anyone else knows anything about any subject.

 I plainly stated who elementary syllogisms. That more people ment more food, not less. And that more sheep ment more clothes, not less. More food and more clothes and fewer children dying ment better living.

 Now everyone comes out to comment on some nebulous general economics that is supposedely wrong but not commenting on my plain examples.
 Dago, you really think one has to be smart and knowlegeable to understand those two plain issues?
 Do you feel sad that feudalism has died, along with the rest of the guys?

 Don't you feel stupid defending virues of feudalism? Just few days ago you were an ardent proponent of socialism. Did you change your mind? :rolleyes:

 miko

Offline Curval

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2004, 02:01:23 PM »
Miko...I belive you will find that Jones was a graduate of Oxford University...with a degree in history.  

I'd take his account over some self professed economist on a BBS thanks.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2004, 02:18:39 PM »
Curval: Miko...I belive you will find that Jones was a graduate of Oxford University...with a degree in history.  
 I'd take his account over some self professed economist on a BBS thanks.


 You can believe anyone you care to. And you can label me whatever you want.
 But what do you think about two statements I posted here?
 Of does that Oxford-graduated historian does all your thinking for you?

 Come on - it's simple:
more people <== more food
more sheep ==> more clothes.

 Why don't you refute any of those? Do you really need a Ph.D. from Oxford to help you with that?

 How come referring to the world-famous economists like Adam Smith and Mises and Hayek (nobel prise 74) and Friedman (nobel prise 76) and others earns me a derogatory label of "self professed economist" while your referral to some guy nobody heard of before and your open refusal to think for yourself does not earn you a label "self professed historian"?

 miko

Offline Curval

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2004, 02:25:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
How come referring to the world-famous economists like Adam Smith and Mises and Hayek (nobel prise 74) and Friedman (nobel prise 76) and others earns me a derogatory label of "self professed economist" while your referral to some guy nobody heard of before and your open refusal to think for yourself does not earn you a label "self professed historian"?

 miko


Never heard of those economists before...sorry, only did the economics classes I "had" to take to get my professional quaifications.  Then out I went into the real world.

I "have" however heard of Terry Jones and all of the Monty Python crew...all of them are either Oxford or Cambridge grads.  

I profess nothing, other than to put more faith in Jones than ANY economist when refering to the historical past.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline john9001

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2004, 02:36:39 PM »
more sheep== more boiled mutton, yummy


could someone translate 'elementary syllogisms' into  non-yale american english?