Author Topic: "Bloody peasants..."  (Read 2812 times)

Offline Dinger

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2004, 12:50:12 PM »
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Great write-up Dinger. A couple of corrections.
Animal "husbandry" was purely incidental. It could have been any other activity resultinmg in industrial production.
The shift in value did not happen from land to labor - but from land to labor and industrial capital.
Capital replaces expensive labor with machinery and multiplies existing labor. The value "migrated" mostly from land to factories, mills, etc.

Agreed. I left capital out as a simplification. Then again, factories didn't arrive in the late-fourteenth century.  And, as you know, Capital isn't just machinery; it can be animal power.

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I am not sure that labor got expensive or that it mattered positively rather than negatively.
The drop in population surely affected the social order and advanced liberties when lords competer for tenantsm but the population could grow fast in those times and good land did decrease in area due to climate change. So the demographically the sitiation was probably not much different after it stabilised than before plagues.

Perhaps, but the "stabilization" took something on the order of 150 years on some accounts.

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What changed is that increase power of cities and merchants over lords and disarray in guilds provided for more options in accumulating productive capital.
Division of labor, trade and economic monetary calculation was known since antiquity. Capitalism differs from other systems mostly in marketing and investing - it produces for the masses, not for elite and it allows even the poorest people venue for savings/investmentvia banking.
The capitalists - artisans with savings or merchants - opened shops with their savings and hired exess workers from countryside.

Sorry, that sounds too much like Alan Macfarlane to be true.  but let's keep going.
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In those times, the second brothers and exess sisters could not marry and have children because the father's plots coudl not be subdivided any more. So they were forced to back-breaking work on their brother's farm for food, treated as extra mouths to feed. Such were eager to trade desperate existance without future for a job on factory - indoors, guaranteed income, chance to have family.

This argument has problems. First, it assumes a land-scarce economy, which is not the economy that got the peasants their concessions.  I suppose you could go: Black Death-freeing of serfs-enclosure-land problems again.
Second, the notion of second brothers and excess sisters being unable to marry just isn't borne out by the manorial court rolls. Yes, partible inheretance was a divisive factor, but there were strategies to build it up as well.
Third, social factors don't move people around nearly as much as economic ones. Until the nineteenth century, the overwhelming majority of Europeans were engaged in agricultural production; they were peasants, in short. That's for good reason: everyone needs to eat, and the surplus a peasant family produced was relatively small.  It's that surplus that enables someone else not to farm.  So today, we've got industrialized farming practices that provide for plenty of surplus, so most of us in the industrialized world don't have to farm.  You only see people leaving villages and going to cities, or doing something other than farming if there's food for that activity.

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Labor had to be cheap because new capitalists had to sell to peasants - which were poor.

I'm doubtful of this. Capitalists didn't start selling to peasants until pretty late in the game. Most of the materials for peasant life were supplied locally through village industry, as many of our last names attest.
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Of course factory workers become more politically active than disposessed country peasants - they develop expertise, they cogregate in great numbers, they live in cities where they are exposed to protaganda, etc. They are certainly seen more by historians than peasants.

So they ***** more and are heard more. That's why it may seem that workers that came to work on the factory voluntarily live on worse conditions than they did before they came to town.
Which defies common sense - why would they choose to trade lavish country life for factory "expoloitation".

I don't know about the twentienth century, but I know that until that point, cities had birth/death ratios below one, and life expectancy was much lower. Cities needed to be replenished constantly from the o****ryside.
Capitalists -- merchants, factory owners, bankers -- keep all kinds of records. In GB, all we have for the peasants are manorial court rolls and after 1540, parish records. Literacy matters more in cities than elsewhere, and in cities you also get people who don't have to work for a living, unlike in peasant villages.  As for ******ing more, I don't know.  Peasant uprisings are at least as common as factory worker revolts, both in the past and in the present.  But when factory workers rise up, you're more likely to hear their side of the story.
Oh yeah, another thing, city-dwellers were not subject to the same onerous obligations as peasants. They were technically free, which made cities an attractive place to end up.

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And they were not disposessed by sheep - the factories appeared first and created demand for wool, only then did the sheep replaced farming. That is also common sense.


The wool industry is one of the oldest in England and Scotland.  As early as the eleventh century, wool was being made for export. It was this trade that contributed to the urbanization of Northern Europe in the 11th and 12th centuries on. The simplified model is: England and Scotland had the flocks and would produce the wool, which would usually be exported overseas to Flanders, where it would be converted to cloth. Traders would take the cloth down to Champagne, where  in the towns of Troyes, Provins, Meaux and Lagny trade fairs would be held. Merchants from Italy, among other places, would come with spices and good stuff from the Eastern mediterranean. By the thirteenth century, half the population of Flanders was living in cities, a rate of urbanization unmatched north of the alps, and the dominant industry was cloth production. As political stability improved and the italians developed some sophisticated banking systems, the "trade caravan" system changed to one where trade no longer required face-to-face barter, and goods would be shipped from point to point.  All this happened before the plague, and before the peasants got their concessions. So centuries before factories were created, the wool trade was in effect. The demand was there, the supply was there, and the means of production. The mills just streamlined it.

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2004, 01:46:10 PM »
Dinger: that sounds too much like Alan Macfarlane to be true.

 Have to plead ignorance on that one.

This argument has problems. First, it assumes a land-scarce economy, which is not the economy that got the peasants their concessions.

 First, the bulk of concessions should have been won by peasants at the time of the lowest population relative to arable land - considering the climate change.
 Second, I would not put much emphasis on peasants getting their concessions as a result of peasant/landlord dynamics. Lords did not have problems keeping peasants in check for millenia.
 The most important social process was shift of power from landed gentry to cities and emerging capitalist class. The peasants getting any benefits could have been just a side-effect.

You only see people leaving villages and going to cities, or doing something other than farming if there's food for that activity.

 And food increase was provided by peasants getting more and better tools from early capitalists - which freed more labor from fields and more land for non-food production uses - which provided capitalists with more abundant raw materials and labor. And so on in a virtuous circle.
 And do not forget the division of labor - even without better agricultural tools the peasant family could get much more productive. Division of labor and specialisation yield great efficiency increases even before the technological progress in agriculture takes off. Once industrually-produced woolen clothes got so cheap that pesants could afford them for less labor that it took to make them in the household, the pesants could dedicate all their time to what they did best - growing stuff, instead of ineffectually producing clothes and other stuff for their families.

Capitalists didn't start selling to peasants until pretty late in the game. Most of the materials for peasant life were supplied locally through village industry, as many of our last names attest.

 Right - there were smiths and such who were making stuff for thousands of years. And so did the life conditions of pesants did not change in 8,000 years of recorded history. A smith working in a willage with one or two apprentices was not efficient - he only had specialisation but no division of labor, no economy of scale, no capital to increase productivity, no exchange of ideas and innovations as happens in cities.
 Sure - city artisans had all that - scale, machinery, experience, scale, but for hundreds of years the guilds maintained the monopoly on industry and did not allow to turn production for elite into production for masses.
 The breakup of the power of guilds may be more important development than any other in the rapid advance of capitalism.

I don't know about the twentienth century, but I know that until that point, cities had birth/death ratios below one, and life expectancy was much lower. Cities needed to be replenished constantly from the countryside.

 I have issues with such statistics. I can see too many ways they could have been distrorted.
 Cities did not need to be replenished constantly from the countryside as in some had to mandate it. Cities were replenished from countryside by willing peasants migrating there. Since I find it hard to believe that a peasant entering a city forgot the way back, I can only conclude that such peasants changed worse living conditions for better ones. In fact, people run away into the cities.

They were technically free, which made cities an attractive place to end up.

 Supply/demand. Any attractive place attracts people untill it becomes hell and conditions equalise - unless it has a system in place to use every person productively. Such was the free market, where addition of every person does not make others worse but may benefit them and that person as well - by allowing him/her to be productive. Cities grew, subject to occasional epidemics.

The wool industry is one of the oldest in England and Scotland. As early as the eleventh century, wool was being made for export.

 True. And 4,000 years ago british tin was imported to ancient Egypt. It's the matter of scale - 700 manual weavers or 600,000 veawers using weaving machines and millions of sheep to keep them supplied. Few hundred tonns or ore vs. hundreds of thousands tonns. The facts of production do not paint a true picture without mentioning the magnitude.

So centuries before factories were created, the wool trade was in effect. The demand was there, the supply was there, and the means of production. The mills just streamlined it.

 Romans had huge mills in Europe that were not matched for 1000 years afterwards.
 Except for small pockets of more-capitalistic populations like Flanders, the production and market relations, however extensive, involved small part of the population - mostly elites. The goods were paid not with money obtained producing and selling other goods, but with rent money from serfs and peasants. The peasant life was to large degree still natural and self-contained.
 Only development of all-involwing market relations made the true mass-scale production profitable.

 I can't say I disagree with you on general issues - just on scale and relative importance of certain factors.

 The point I was trying to make in the beginning is that peasants were migrating to the cities - and staying there - voluntarily because they perceived those conditions as superior to what they had.
 Those same pesants migrating to the cities and working at the factories created demand for wool which they used to produce stuff and that caused conversion of farmland to grazing.

  miko

Offline Dinger

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2004, 02:27:02 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
[ First, the bulk of concessions should have been won by peasants at the time of the lowest population relative to arable land - considering the climate change.
 Second, I would not put much emphasis on peasants getting their concessions as a result of peasant/landlord dynamics. Lords did not have problems keeping peasants in check for millenia.
 The most important social process was shift of power from landed gentry to cities and emerging capitalist class. The peasants getting any benefits could have been just a side-effect.

absolutely; the only concessions the peasants get are when such concessions are irrelevant.

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 And food increase was provided by peasants getting more and better tools from early capitalists - which freed more labor from fields and more land for non-food production uses - which provided capitalists with more abundant raw materials and labor. And so on in a virtuous circle.
 And do not forget the division of labor - even without better agricultural tools the peasant family could get much more productive. Division of labor and specialisation yield great efficiency increases even before the technological progress in agriculture takes off. Once industrually-produced woolen clothes got so cheap that pesants could afford them for less labor that it took to make them in the household, the pesants could dedicate all their time to what they did best - growing stuff, instead of ineffectually producing clothes and other stuff for their families.

Yes, for example, the conversion from the mediterranean scratch plow to one with a proper mouldboard better suited to turning the thick N European soil was a major factor in agricultural improvement, as was the use of more efficient yokes.
specialization came in early.  Peasant families weren't like american frontier families.  Somebody brewed the beer; someone else was a smith, etc.


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 Sure - city artisans had all that - scale, machinery, experience, scale, but for hundreds of years the guilds maintained the monopoly on industry and did not allow to turn production for elite into production for masses.
 The breakup of the power of guilds may be more important development than any other in the rapid advance of capitalism.

This I disagree with.  The guilds arise with the cities themselves, and while they promoted specialization and vocational education, as well as claiming a monopoly, which was never complete.Guilds promoted the conditions for capitalism more than they stifled them. The problem is they're too close to modern trade unions, and prolabor and antilabor historians both like to play up the role of guilds in capitalism for the same reasons.
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I don't know about the twentienth century, but I know that until that point, cities had birth/death ratios below one, and life expectancy was much lower. Cities needed to be replenished constantly from the countryside.

 I have issues with such statistics. I can see too many ways they could have been distrorted.

Although in this case, the statistics cohere with what we'd expect to find, and they come from a broad sample across time and regions.
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 Cities did not need to be replenished constantly from the countryside as in some had to mandate it. Cities were replenished from countryside by willing peasants migrating there. Since I find it hard to believe that a peasant entering a city forgot the way back, I can only conclude that such peasants changed worse living conditions for better ones. In fact, people run away into the cities.

Yes, exactly. Cities don't need to advertise. People move to the cities. They always have.

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 I can't say I disagree with you on general issues - just on scale and relative importance of certain factors.

 The point I was trying to make in the beginning is that peasants were migrating to the cities - and staying there - voluntarily because they perceived those conditions as superior to what they had.
 Those same pesants migrating to the cities and working at the factories created demand for wool which they used to produce stuff and that caused conversion of farmland to grazing.


My argument was more against the claim that the peasants demand for liberties in the late fourteenth centuries was what caused the industrial revolution, i.e.,  Peasants made waves, made their labor more expensive, and landlords switched to enclosure and wool production. What happened was that the peasant labor got more expensive, and wool production got much less expensive.

The argument you're making (As I see it) is that urbanization has a lot more to do with capitalism than what happens out in the countryside, and I agree with that. I'm just adding that urbanization has a lot to do with the methods of food production and distribution.  A city is only as big as the countryside can feed.

But I don't think you can understand the economics of British wool by considering strictly the British Isles. It was a commodity that was valued across Europe. In the premodern era, as much of that stuff that they could produce, they could sell, replacing inferior, locally-produced stuff elsewhere in Europe.  Food on the other hand, is largely consumed locally.  It's not the roman empire (to speak of a labor-intensive economy) bringing tons of grain from Egypt anymore.

Offline Vulcan

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2004, 03:16:39 PM »
Isn't there a famous quote... "those who can do, those who can't teach"?

It should be updated "those who can do, those who can't post longwinded replies on Intardnet BBSs"

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2004, 03:25:33 PM »
Dinger: This I disagree with. The guilds arise with the cities themselves, and while they promoted specialization and vocational education, as well as claiming a monopoly, which was never complete.

 For lack of time, let's continue disagreeing on that and keep looking for more data.

Yes, exactly. Cities don't need to advertise. People move to the cities. They always have.

 Not in modern USA. The government interventions - subcidising suburbs, destroying neighbourhoods and subcidising squlalor and crime in inner cities - make people move out from the cities.

My argument was more against the claim that the peasants demand for liberties in the late fourteenth centuries was what caused the industrial revolution, i.e., Peasants made waves, made their labor more expensive, and landlords switched to enclosure...

 I see. I am more inclined to believe it was hardly ever relevant what peasants wanted and what they demanded and very little of what they got was a result of their actions or their uprisings.

 I bet the bored lords of those times would gladly slaughter a few rebellious peasants than replace them with docile but boring sheep. Peasant women were also more attractive when young than sheep. :)
 It's hard to believe peasant rebellions posed any danger to the lords - there was widespread castellation intended to withstand real sieges by professional military. The peasant rebellions got more publicity than they probably deserved.
 I bet the news of the latest joust was the first three pages of their newspapers and the article on massive peasant rebellion was stuck somewhere next to "help wanted" ads.

"Ninteen thousand peasants rebelled last week in the provice of Low Bumsuck. There were no casualties incured during their slaughter though lord X. severely sprained his elbow which may preclude him from participation in this week jousting finals (see his interview tomorrow). Property damage is being asessed to be covered by the raise in taxes. Local landlords say that the pesant population needed thining out long ago. "


But I don't think you can understand the economics of British wool by considering strictly the British Isles. It was a commodity that was valued across Europe.

 By top 5-10% of the population at most. That's a lot but not really a mass market by our measures.

 Anyway, that was a nice converstion. I am checking out for today. If you have any particular books to recomend on the subject, I'd appreciate.


 miko

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2004, 03:30:59 PM »
Vulcan: It should be updated "those who can do, those who can't post..."

 Hmm...
 Vulcan - 2.02 posts per day
 Miko - 1.83 posts per day
 Dinger - 0.77 posts per day

 Oh, gosh, I am back to using "modern mathematical theories" to make my point. Where is my flame-resistant suit? :D

 miko

Offline Vulcan

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2004, 03:39:47 PM »
Hmm Miko, why don't you quote the whole sentence?

I specified quantity in posts, not quantity of posts. Back to Reading Comprehension 101 by Mailorder my friend :)

Offline miko2d

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"Bloody peasants..."
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2004, 03:49:11 PM »
Vulcan: Hmm Miko, why don't you quote the whole sentence?
 I specified quantity in posts, not quantity of posts. Back to Reading Comprehension 101 by Mailorder my friend :)


 Oh, it's only posting when you have something to say that earns "stupid points". I see... :rolleyes:

 The content of your posts being so preciously scarce, I can see why you get upset with me for leaving a piece out. :)

 
 miko