Roll rates

[Pyro]

I'm going to be doing some work in the area of roll rates soon.  Since many people like to complain about how their favorite plane rolls too slow and every plane they don't like rolls too fast, I figured I'd give everyone a chance to put up now.  Detailed roll rate data is not widely available, and most of the stuff that is out there is pretty generic and not well documented.  Even so, something is better than nothing.  

So what I'm looking for is some roll rate data that I can pop into excel and graph out.  It should be in the following format:

Speed MPH, Roll Rate degrees per second

Example:

200, 45
210, 47
220, 49
230, 51
etc.

Please include the following with your data.  What the source data is, the specific plane model, and any specific test conditions mentioned in the source data.  If you're posting data that represents a composite of multiple differing sources, please include those sources as well and give an indication as to what you're thinking.

Please don't submit fake data as a joke, i.e. B-17 rolling 720 dps.  Please try to put aside any bias you may have and don't try to push inapplicable data to either bolster or diminish a particular plane.  I.E.,  don't try to push clipped wing Spit data because you want the Spit to roll faster and conversely, don't try to push early fabric aileron spit data for a later model with metal ailerons because you want it to roll slower.  Don't be afraid to post something if you're not sure if it's applicable, just don't try to be misleading about it.  Thanks for the input.

[GODO]

Pyro, I suppose you are asking for max roll rate, but take into consideration roll acceleration/decceleration also.

[Tilt]

I have never seen a full set for the lavochkins.

The Rechlin translation

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/la5g3.jpg

(thanks F4UDOA)

gives La5 as a single

280, 90

It mentions "excellent aileron  authority" and indicates that stick forces (generally) increase at 373mph.

As you know the La7 had the same wing. Also stick forces were further reduced in the La7 (over the La5) and authority further improved with the replacement of cables with tubular linkages.

If you ever find any lavochkin roll data of any depth I would be very interested in a copy.

[flakbait]

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/naca-report-868/

This might help some. It's the (in)famous NACA report on roll rate, including a whole mess of calculations, graphs, charts, diagrams, the works. A fairly comprehensive work if you're looking for one. On page 42 there's a massive graph showing the roll rates for all sorts of US, German, British, and Japanese aircraft. You'll need a magnifying glass though; some of the print is awful hard to read.



-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High

[Kweassa]

I think Pyro is asking us to type and sort all them data by ourselves, so he can see what kind of opinions differ on what plane at a single glance.

 Like for instance, somebody gives a sorted speed/ degrees per second data on a Fw190A-5, and somebody gives another data that's quite different from it. Pyro can then look at both differing data sets of the Fw190A-5, and determine which one of them to choose on what standards.

 ...

ps) If anyone might want to look up how AH planes are doing:

 Kingcat's Aces High planes roll rates

[F4UDOA]

Pyro,

Will you model overbalance and flutter?

[Pyro]

F4U, we aren't planning to.  How would you have us model overbalance without FFB?

Kweassa, yeah basically this is a good time to give anybody the opportunity to make a specific case about the roll performance of a particular plane.  It's very easy to implement with the new flight model changes.  

Tilt,  that test report was written by Hans-Werner Lerche if you are unaware.  A copy of it appears in his book, "Luftwaffe Test Pilot".  He doesn't talk a whole lot about the La-5 in the book but it is an interesting read worth getting if you don't have it.  As to detailed roll data on the Lavochkins, I don't even recall seeing that in any of the Tsagi data I've looked at.

[GScholz]

Pyro, I read the NACA report Flakbait posted and I find it interesting that while the diagram on page 42 is limited to 50 lbs stick force they point out Zero "force limits unknown". Does this mean that other planes (and presumably the Zero) had maximum stick force limits, or that the Zero's performance in the diagram was possibly done with a stick force other than 50 lbs?

Does AH1 / AH2 model maximum stick force to 50 lbs?

[Kweassa]

Interesting point Scholz.... there was huge ruckus in IL2/FB forums concerning plane roll rates on the point that some planes would be impossible for the pilot to apply and maintain "ideal" stick forces. So, people started fighting on how much force can be applied in what plane, before they even started mentioning specific roll rates.

 In that sense, how much force can the AH1 or AH2 virtual pilot apply?? Are they all the same in all planes? Or is there some specific differences in specific planes we should be aware of?? ie) P-51s are modelled at 50lbs side force, 109s are 30lbs.. or something like that?

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Pyro
.  As to detailed roll data on the Lavochkins, I don't even recall seeing that in any of the Tsagi data I've looked at.

Me neither......... its like they never had a test for it! I have over 50 pages of various TSAGI stuff and roll rate is not mentioned once. (or at least not in any bit I can translate and I have looked........ believe me).

The only reference I have ever seen is the Rechlin figure referred to above  plus some anecdotal stuff (without numbers) from a czech pilot that (with further research) suggest it )la5 roll rate) was "better" than a Spit MkV. (but at what speed etc it is very unclear)

Frankly barring any other data, and as your present curve passes thru the sole Rechlin reference I would tend to go with what you have lavochkin roll rate wise!

[Tilt]

Flutter and stick responce and pilot input.............

I know its an illusion but when in an AH cockpit I apply aileron the ac rolls almost before the aileron seems to move. I presume actually its instantanious.

Flutter I know nothing of

Stick responce could be a function of dead banding between input and out put that varies with FM........... AH has always seemed to resist this however ........

Pilot input (over coming stick forces) could also be shown via damping of input..basically our std pilot has to apply a certain input force and above a certain level his "strain" to do this causes a delay in its full application.

I assume over balance would be exactly the opposite.........ie stick inputs are amplified under certain conditions.

best leave it as it is;)

[Angus]

The only thing not more or less correct in our AH that crosses my mind is the Zeke, especially the speed at which it should roll no more.

[Pyro]

I've never seen a roll rate test that really quantified stick forces using a measuring device of some sort.  I believe 50 lbs is used as a standard for the maximum input that an average pilot can exert and that it is strictly up to the test pilot to keep stick forces in the 50 lb range during his tests.

Angus, quantify what you're saying and we can go from there.

[Nashwan]

The Fw190 data in NACA 868 comes from an RAF report, iirc. That report notes they used a "henschel type stick force indicator".

[Guppy35]

Any chance of clipping the wings of the Spit V or IX Pyro?  Since most fights are 20K and below that full span wing doesn't make that much difference. and it would improve the roll rate on both.

Clipped wing LFVc's and LFIXs would be really nice

Dan/Slack