Author Topic: New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17  (Read 5359 times)

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2004, 06:58:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The Nazis/Russians/Japanese did institute systems that encouraged and condoned outrages no doubt. No sane person can dispute that.


Please, I want examples of Soviet system "encouraging and condoning outrages".

If you'll fail providing proof for your hallucinations as you usually do - I want your apologies. GH, and don't you dare to say that you are a "victim of evil communists".

Offline Hortlund

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2004, 07:24:01 AM »
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Originally posted by Boroda
Please, I want examples of Soviet system "encouraging and condoning outrages".
 


Ilja Ehrenburg.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2004, 08:08:41 AM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Ilja Ehrenburg.


Should I provide you an article from Pravda explaining that comrade Erenburg is "not right"?...

Pravda, April 18th, 1945. "Comrade Erenburg oversimplifies" by G.F. Alexandrov, "agitprop" chief in Central Committee. "Comrade Erenburg is not right, Hitlers come and go, but German people stays".

Anyway, wartime propaganda exists in every country at war, and Western "allies" are not an exception. What I mean is actions like Hitler's order from May, 13th, 1941, where all German military and emplyees are declared immune to any prosecution for crimes against Soviet civilians. This is a clear and obvious encouragemnt for atrocities and a direct violation of conventions.

http://www.stsg.de/main/zeithain/geschichte/sowjpow/index_en.php

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2004, 08:27:49 AM »
Dowding: Of course, the Germans were wonderful, kind, magnanimous people on the advance and pitiful, undeserved victims on the retreat.

 While I was living in the Soviet Union, I made sure to talk with the ukrainian and belorussian people that lived under geman occupation any chance I've got - and I've got a lot.
 Those people (all country peasants) had about as much insentive to say nice things about germans as an average american redneck has to say about japanese in WWII.

 To be sure, they all claimed that germans were evil and cruel - except for the particular germans that were stationed in their house and village. Those somehow behaved exemplary with respect to the local population. Go figure.


 Could it be that the people strafing russian civilians from german planes were not germans but swedes? After all, some swedes hate russians passionately and believe that "Russia always has been, and always will be, our enemy. This dates back to well before 1534. We have had longer or shorter periods of peace, but we have more or less always been at war with them." :rolleyes:

Offline ravells

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2004, 08:37:39 AM »
Hi Boroda,

I have read a couple of books written by British POWs who were in Eastern Germany when the Soviet Union broke through into Prussia.  One episode particularly sticks in my mind.

The POW's were working for a rich Prussian family in the grounds of their castle. Before the troops arrived, a Russian staff car pulled up. The Russian officers basically told the owners to flee, because they had lost control of their troops' behaviour.

Virtually any German captured soldier was shot. (I believe that only a tiny percentage of German POWs actually survived). Rape by Russian troops was wholesale and indiscriminate. The book mentions that girls that were raped were told by the Russians to wear a white armband which would mean that they would be spared a second time, when in fact it meant that they were 'hotties' and the armband advertised this to other soldiers who went onto rape them.

These POWs did say, however that Russian soldiers were incredibly kind to children.

All I say, is that from what I have read, the Russians were utterly brutal to the Germans when the tables were turned, although as I understand it, it was not that the Soviets had any particuarly 'system' of abuse toward German civilians, but that the officers just could not prevent it from taking place.

Given what Russia was put through by the Germans, one can understand the desire for vengance that the Russians must have felt and I make no moral point about this.

Ravs

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2004, 08:49:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Should I provide you an article from Pravda explaining that comrade Erenburg is "not right"?...

Pravda, April 18th, 1945. "Comrade Erenburg oversimplifies" by G.F. Alexandrov, "agitprop" chief in Central Committee. "Comrade Erenburg is not right, Hitlers come and go, but German people stays".
[/b]
I know very well that the commies wanted to distance themselves from Ehrenburg at the closing minutes of the war.

But please do provide some articles from Pravda before 1945 where they distance themselves from him.

Quote

Anyway, wartime propaganda exists in every country at war, and Western "allies" are not an exception. What I mean is actions like Hitler's order from May, 13th, 1941, where all German military and emplyees are declared immune to any prosecution for crimes against Soviet civilians. This is a clear and obvious encouragemnt for atrocities and a direct violation of conventions.
 


Sure it is. And no, you will not find any Soviet order similar to the Commissar order of 1941.

You will however find persons like Ilja Ehrenburg encouraging Russian soldiers to rape, butcher and kill pretty much everything German with a pulse...with the good memory of the communist regime.

Until it got out of hand in April 1945 that is, when Soviet units began disobeying combat orders, and instead the soldiers would go on rape/pillage/burn and butcher everything rampages among the German civilian population.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2004, 08:53:24 AM »
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Originally posted by miko2d

 Could it be that the people strafing russian civilians from german planes were not germans but swedes? After all, some swedes hate russians passionately and believe that "Russia always has been, and always will be, our enemy. This dates back to well before 1534. We have had longer or shorter periods of peace, but we have more or less always been at war with them."


Nah, couldnt be because
a) the Swedish airunit in Finland wasnt equipped with Ju88s, and
b) This unit only flew missions over Finnish territory (if I remember correctly)

I edited your post to remove the emoticon that made it look retarded, no need to thank me.

Offline Angus

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2004, 09:19:42 AM »
From Grunherz statement about the Lancaster crews:
"who nightly killed thousands, tens of thousands even a hundred thousand German civilans... "
For your info:
RAF Bomber command dropped around 1 million tonnes on the German Reich in WW2. The Americans added a lot to that as well.
RAF bomber command lost around 100.000 aircrew in those operations.
From the combined RAF and USAAF bombing, German casualties of dead+ wounded cross the million.
In 1940 however with the RAF hopelessly trying accurate bombing on military targets, Bomber command lost more people than the victim, Germany, AND actually German losses of life were less than losses in traffic accidents in the same period.
The Russians lost 22 million people, MILLIONS of civilians. That does not include the Jewish part as far as I know.
Just to have some numbers right....;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline ra

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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2004, 09:45:00 AM »
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Could it be that the people strafing russian civilians from german planes were not germans but swedes?

Much more likely is that the pilots cannot possibly identify the demographics of the people they are attacking from 1000 meters away at 400km/h.  There were often deliberate attacks on civilian populations throughout the war, but these clips do not necessarily show that civilians were the target of the attack.  Why would the LW risk planes and crewmen to kill children?

ra

Offline ravells

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2004, 09:53:03 AM »
Ra:

to create confusion and chaos on the road network so that transportation logistics would be made harder for the military.

Ravs

Offline Naso

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« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2004, 11:36:44 AM »
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Originally posted by ravells
Ra:

to create confusion and chaos on the road network so that transportation logistics would be made harder for the military.

Ravs


Yep, and this was done in Italy too, by *cough* another actor *cough*.

;)

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2004, 11:49:32 AM »
Looks interesting.  If its good, it'll get English subtitles (rather than dubbing).

Offline ra

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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2004, 12:05:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Naso
Yep, and this was done in Italy too, by *cough* another actor *cough*.

;)

It was done in Ethiopia too, sometimes with poison gas.  I don't remember by whom.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2004, 12:41:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Boroda
Please, I want examples of Soviet system "encouraging and condoning outrages".

If you'll fail providing proof for your hallucinations as you usually do - I want your apologies. GH, and don't you dare to say that you are a "victim of evil communists".


No proof Boroda, all I have is western/nazi/polish/jewish/gulagvictim propaganda. You wouldnt wabnt to be botherd about that....

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2004, 12:48:58 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Then post some of that "western/nazi/polish/jewish/gulagvictim propaganda" then ...


You arent serious right Gscholz? You need me to post prrof about the criminal excess commited by Stalins regime....