New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund

I know very well that the commies wanted to distance themselves from Ehrenburg at the closing minutes of the war.

But please do provide some articles from Pravda before 1945 where they distance themselves from him.


Sure it is. And no, you will not find any Soviet order similar to the Commissar order of 1941.

You will however find persons like Ilja Ehrenburg encouraging Russian soldiers to rape, butcher and kill pretty much everything German with a pulse...with the good memory of the communist regime.

Until it got out of hand in April 1945 that is, when Soviet units began disobeying combat orders, and instead the soldiers would go on rape/pillage/burn and butcher everything rampages among the German civilian population. [/B]

Hortlund, you don't understand what you speak about.

Erenburg could say anything, but there was no way to openly encourage rapes and murders of civilians. It was simply impossible. It was contradicting Soviet "religion", and political departments could never let anyone even speak about rapes and murders. All they could do was close their eyes on this, until some higher command could hear about it and they will be punished.

Official position was to shoot rapists and murderers in front of their units.

Again you mix up wartime propaganda with official political doctrine and declared values.

Any officer who's unit was caught on rape/murder could get severely punished.

And believe me, this politics started not in April 1945. It began even before Soviet Army crossed pre-war borders.

Ravells wrote"

Virtually any German captured soldier was shot. (I believe that only a tiny percentage of German POWs actually survived).

The same thing with captured German soldiers. When it was possible to make it look like accident or combat kills - they could get shot pretty easily, but any officer in charge of POWs could never let his soldiers kill them. It depends on unit and relations inside it: any soldier reported as a POW-killer by "whistlers" had severe problems.

You can't imagine how many German POWs worked here after the War. There are whole districts and towns built ny German POWs. You can still find buildings made by "German prisoners" in almost any village in Central Russia...

[Nakhui]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You arent serious right Gscholz? You need me to post prrof about the criminal excess commited by Stalins regime....

psst... there is no proof of Stalin's glorious regime committing any crimes. Those records were burned. Those who say otherwise are traitors to the motherland.

Besides all the enemies of the state were found to be criminally insane and the merciful state sent them to sanitariums for their health.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by GScholz
No, but you claim the russian commanders were "encouraging and condoning outrages" by the soldiers. That's different.

Here is what I said:

"The Nazis/Russians/Japanese did institute systems that encouraged and condoned outrages no doubt. No sane person can dispute that."

Now of course you arent saying that Stalin's orders magically lept from  him to the men who pulled the trigger, bypassing the command chain...

[Boroda]

GH, I am just curious, who of us two is... hmmm... not very smart?...

I asked a direct question, and you answer by same meaningless "stalinwasaneviltyrrant" bla-bla-bla.

Again, I want proof, are you going to give me any? Otherwise I request your apologies.

You have to learn to be responsible for your words.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Boroda
Please, I want examples of Soviet system "encouraging and condoning outrages".

If you'll fail providing proof for your hallucinations as you usually do - I want your apologies. GH, and don't you dare to say that you are a "victim of evil communists".

Boroda,

Ask any Poles that survived your country's brutal rape and pillage of the territory that was Poland's long before the war started, and was retaken from the German's during the course of the war.  Stalin's insistence that the allies divide up Poland's legitamate territory, and those bastards Roosevelt and Churchill's failure to stand up to that mad man are criminal as well.  The Germans were not the only ones to kill mass amounts in rape and murder, the Soviets had a fair hand in it as did the brits, and the US.

[miko2d]

Memoirs of signalmen: Yuri Koriakin

Before crossing the German border in the region of Bromberg (Bydgoszcz) the company politruk (political officer - trans.) came to a meeting and announced the following: "We are entering German territory. We know that Germans brought uncounted evils to our land, that is why we are entering their territory, to punish the Germans. I ask you not to make contact with the local population, so that you wouldn't have any troubles, and not to walk alone. Well, and concerning the woman question, you can treat the German women rather freely, but so it wouldn't look organized. 1-2 men can go, do what they need (that's exactly what he said: "what they need"), return, and that's all. Any kind of pointless damage to German men and women is inadmissible and will be punished." This conversation made us feel that he himself didn't know exactly what norms of behavior should've been followed. Of course, we were all under the influence of propaganda, which didn't differentiate Germans and Hitlerites in those times. That's why I know of a ton of cases when German women were raped, but not killed.

A couple of times, when entering houses, I saw killed old people. Once, having entered a house, we saw that someone was lying on the bed. I pulled the blanket off and saw a woman with a bayonet in her chest. What happened? I don't know. We left without asking. But the picture completely changed after the Victory, when on May 12-14, an article by Academician Aleksandrov called "Ilya Erenburg Oversimplifies" was published in the Pravda newspaper. That's where it was declared that there are Germans, and then there are Hitlerites. That was the time of change, when peaceful reconstruction started. Then they started tightening the screws, punish practically every misdemeanor.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Bodhi

  The Germans were not the only ones to kill mass amounts in rape and murder, the Soviets had a fair hand in it as did the brits, and the US.

As you could see - I never said that Soviet or other allied soldiers were innocent angels. But I insist that there was NO "encouraging and condoning outrages" from Soviet authorities, and the whole policy was to strictly avoid such things. I am sorry that GH probably fails to understand my English.

[ravells]

Boroda - I was saying that from the historical recollections I have read, the case was that the enlisted men were not in control - Particularly after they had been drinking.

Certainly from the point of view of the English POWs who saw all of this happen, they said that the officers were trying to warn any Germans who could to 'get away' to avoid getting raped.

Miko's post is interesting, and chimes with what I have read.

Ravs

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Boroda
As you could see - I never said that Soviet or other allied soldiers were innocent angels. But I insist that there was NO "encouraging and condoning outrages" from Soviet authorities, and the whole policy was to strictly avoid such things. I am sorry that GH probably fails to understand my English.

Boroda,

How do you explain Stalin's directives to wholesale murder the Polish People.  That and to REMOVE the Polish state from the face of the earth?  THat sure sounds like "encouraging and condoning" the organised murder of the Poles caught under the Soviet advance to Germany...

Those words were spoken by Stalin at the conference in.... I want to say Yalta, but may need to look it up tonight when I get home.

Not trying to be a Soviet Basher Boroda, just that I find that government to be of a criminal caliber on the scale of the Nazi's.

[Kommandant]

Несмотря на героические усилия по отражению атак, экипажи погибали - от торпед, от арктической стужи. Более 200 моряков осталось на морской глубине, свыше 1300 спасли, большую их часть доставили в Архангельск.

as true today as when it was written

[GRUNHERZ]

Boroda I understand that you have some perverse need to defend Stalin and his actions therefore I will not waste my time posting any further arguments. Now of course you may take that as lack of evidence but both of us know that if I posted anything, lets say about Katyn you would just come here and say it was all a lie - and not really evidence. In the end you would arrive at the same conclusion, except that in the second case I would waste much more of my time.

Anyway I'm glad you escaped injury in that non existant subway explosion that most certainly did have any involvent with non existent chechen terrorists....

[Angus]

Quote.
" Stalin's insistence that the allies divide up Poland's legitamate territory, and those bastards Roosevelt and Churchill's failure to stand up to that mad man are criminal as well. "

Ahemm.
Churchill actually DID stand up to that with the simple argument that Poland was the reason Great Britain entered the war in the first place. However, for some reason, Rooseveld didn't back him up there.

[Dowding]

Rape, Bodhi? The US and Brits? I don't doubt there were occasions where pissed up soldiers commited rape, but you simply cannot compare that to the way the Germans and Russians behaved. If you do believe they are in any way comparable, perhaps you would find this website to your taste:

http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/idx.htm

I doubt you will find it palatable reading though. It's more to Hortlund's taste.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Dowding


I doubt you will find it palatable reading though. It's more to Hortlund's taste.

Go f u c k yourself you disgusting piece of trash.

[Hortlund]

*counts to ten*