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Author Topic: Bush is anti-abortion when?  (Read 1395 times)

Offline straffo

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2004, 02:57:04 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Jennifer O'Neill had an abortion in her twenties and now is an avid opponant of abortion....




Of all the nerve... to regret what you may have done in your youth... why that b***h.


According to what I read this morning if she choose to be "born again" she get "get free out of jail" card in the instant ...
Weak and a good way to feel deresponsabilized.
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Offline Dowding

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2004, 03:03:19 AM »
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deresponsabilized


Don't know if it was intentional but that is a great Bushism.

lol
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Offline straffo

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2004, 03:12:52 AM »
arrgggg .... I guess it's not the proper translation of : "déresponsabilisé" ?

from time to time as I'm lazy I make a straight French word look english ... it' don't allways work :p
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 03:16:27 AM by straffo »
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Offline Dowding

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2004, 03:30:49 AM »
No, I understood what you meant. But certain mimics have taken to using Bushisms - mispronounced words - in their acts. "deresponsabilized" sounds like one of them. :)
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2004, 04:08:08 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
According to what I read this morning if she choose to be "born again" she get "get free out of jail" card in the instant ...
Weak and a good way to feel deresponsabilized.


Numerous religious faiths believe that when one dies in a state of grace then passage to heaven is assured.  The Catholic confessional is a facet of that belief.  

The act of being 'born again' is an epiphany that one experiences when he takes the true leap of faith and his life is fundamentally changed due to the grace of God.  (At least that is how an agnostic understands it)

I have a friend who went through the experience, and she has cleaned up her life considerably since…. It did something for her…

I think writing it off as analogous to a ‘get out of jail free’ card simplifies it somewhat.
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Offline straffo

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2004, 04:46:11 AM »
I plead guitly of oversimplification.

It's just  because it don't correspond to my belief.

I'm a "faithful" atheist (if it make sense in english) I don't believe in god but I do believe in Greco-Judeo-Christian values.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 08:50:16 AM by straffo »
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Offline rpm

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2004, 05:30:26 AM »
Being "Born Again" is something Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Jerry Falwell cooked up. It was almost as popular (and legit)as pet rocks and mood rings.
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Offline culero

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2004, 05:44:02 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
I plead guitly of oversimplification.

It's just because it because it don't correspond to my belief.

I'm a "faithful" atheist (if it make sense in english) I don't believe in god but I do believe in Greco-Judeo-Christian values.


Think of it like this, straffo - Christians believe that God forgives them their sins, not that they aren't responsible for what they've done.

The concept is that one realizes one is a sinner, accepts responsibility, intends to reform, shares in this with God and his peers, devotes his/her life to following the teachings of Christ, and is then allowed the state of grace by God.

A Christian must be willing to extend the same forgiveness to the rest of the world, but this doesn't mean the rest of the world owes him/her anything on a secular level.

I am like you in that I'm not an adherent to any religion (I'm agnostic rather than athiest, however) but I also see the values you cite as worthy. I don't have any conflict with what Christianity teaches in this regard. If I could accept what I see as mythology (the Bible) as actual truth, I'd be a devoted Christian.

culero
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2004, 06:30:18 AM »
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Originally posted by rpm371
Being "Born Again" is something Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Jerry Falwell cooked up. It was almost as popular (and legit)as pet rocks and mood rings.


Actually it is mentioned in John 3:3, John 3:7, and 1 Peter 1:23.

I don't think that Pat or Jimmy or Jerry wrote any of that although the may have read it.
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Offline straffo

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2004, 06:30:36 AM »
Culeron you pretty well resumed my position.

The part I disagree the most with in the christian belief is this :"dies in a state of grace then passage to heaven is assured " as  McGroin wrote.

For  example there was a christain belief in middle age in France : the catharism a belief seen as heretic by the church at this time it created what we call : "la croisade des Albigeois"

The worst in this crusade what the pope's legat  Arnaud-Amalric, abbey of Cîteaux said in front the Toulouse town :"Kill them all, the Lord will sort them out" leading to a mass murder of about 20 000 people.

Have a look here :
http://www.le-minervois.com/history/medieval.html
and here
http://www.cathars.org/
This is a extremly troubled period where religion what often used as an pretext to extend the French Kingdom.
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Offline culero

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2004, 06:41:42 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
Culeron you pretty well resumed my position.

The part I disagree the most with in the christian belief is this :"dies in a state of grace then passage to heaven is assured " as  McGroin wrote.

For  example there was a christain belief in middle age in France : the catharism a belief seen as heretic by the church at this time it created what we call : "la croisade des Albigeois"

The worst in this crusade what the pope's legat  Arnaud-Amalric, abbey of Cîteaux said in front the Toulouse town :"Kill them all, the Lord will sort them out" leading to a mass murder of about 20 000 people.

Have a look here :
http://www.le-minervois.com/history/medieval.html
and here
http://www.cathars.org/
This is a extremly troubled period where religion what often used as an pretext to extend the French Kingdom.


Just because an act is attributed by its actor to Christianity doesn't mean the actor is correct. Many bad acts have been committed by people who claimed a Christian agenda. This is true in regard to Islam as well, for instance - would you condemn all Muslims because of what certain fanatics preach?

I don't think what you cite in any way contradicts what McGroin wrote, I believe he fairly stated what he said.

culero
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Offline straffo

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2004, 06:52:19 AM »
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Originally posted by culero
I don't think what you cite in any way contradicts what McGroin wrote, I believe he fairly stated what he said.


Yes , I probably expressed my thought badly as usual.

My intent was not to contradic Holden but more to add a bit more context and show a reason why I disagree with the "state of grace" part.

If "state of grace is necessary and sufficient to go to heaven" (Romains 5:1) perhaps it's enought for a believer for me it's clearly not enought.

I can't believe you can get ride of your mistakes in the last instant,it's a personnal position.
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Offline Kieran

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2004, 06:59:07 AM »
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I hate to break it to you, but when you get born again, you get forgiven for stuff like that, and usually your views on the subject will change.  So this issue is not going to bother Christians.  It obviously shouldn't bother non-Christians who favor abortion.  It would only affect non-Christians who oppose abortion, and I doubt this is a real big slice of Dubya's voter base.


Exactly right.
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Offline Kieran

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2004, 07:00:47 AM »
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Originally posted by rpm371
Being "Born Again" is something Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Jerry Falwell cooked up. It was almost as popular (and legit)as pet rocks and mood rings.


That's a pretty convenient method of debate there, where you can disqualify an argument because it is based on belief system with which you disagree. How... liberal and tolerant... of you.
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Offline culero

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Bush is anti-abortion when?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2004, 07:06:02 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
Yes , I probably expressed my thought badly as usual.

My intent was not to contradic Holden but more to add a bit more context and show a reason why I disagree with the "state of grace" part.

If "state of grace is necessary and sufficient to go to heaven" (Romains 5:1) perhaps it's enought for a believer for me it's clearly not enought.

I can't believe you can get ride of your mistakes in the last instant,it's a personnal position.


Think of it like this - what's important is that you sincerely repent. Do so and God forgives you, because if your repentance is sincere the main goal has been accomplished.

Note that this applies to you only in respect to God and others who share your belief. Its not an excuse from the consequences for your acts in the secular world. Its not a release from responsibilty.

culero
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