Friday The 20th, Greace...

[detch01]

Originally posted by Oldman731
I'm assuming that this is the fight Johnson describes in his book, "Wing Leader," although he certainly didn't know it was Priller when he wrote the book (wonder who figured that out).  Believe that the time was around the Dieppe invasion thing, and the British were first meeting FWs.  By Johnson's account, the FW was all over him, and he felt he was lucky just to survive, much less triumph.  His story does make it seem that it was very much a turning fight.  I have always wondered how this real-life event could be squared with AW's and AH's versions of the FW.  As Storch says, there ain't no way that the Spit is going to lose in either of those games.

- oldman

OM I remember reading something along those lines too, but I'm not sure if it was in "Wing Leader" or "Full Circle" - it was in one of JEJ's books though. JEJ was CO of 610 Squadron flying Spitfire MkVc's out of Ludham during the Dieppe raid (19Aug42). He claimed a 190 killed in the fight over Dieppe, which was likely an A-2.
Priller was CO of III/JG26 flying Fw-109A-2's at the time of the raid and claimed only two kills in that month, both spitfires and both after the raid (21Aug42 and 29Aug42). His unit was flying out of St. Omer-Wizernes at the time and very likely involved in the fight over Dieppe. As far as I've been able to find out so far, Priller didn't bail out of an airplane on the day of JEJ's claim and JEJ did in fact shoot down a 190 that day. I could be wrong but  so far there doesn't seem to me to be any chance of it being Priller.
Re: Spit V vs Fw's - give me the Fw any day . The Spit V won't roll, run or zoom with the Fw so the MkV is on the defensive if the Fw driver's paying attention.


Cheers,

[Sakai]

Originally posted by detch01
OM I remember reading something along those lines too, but I'm not sure if it was in "Wing Leader" or "Full Circle" - it was in one of JEJ's books though. JEJ was CO of 610 Squadron flying Spitfire MkVc's out of Ludham during the Dieppe raid (19Aug42). He claimed a 190 killed in the fight over Dieppe, which was likely an A-2.
Priller was CO of III/JG26 flying Fw-109A-2's at the time of the raid and claimed only two kills in that month, both spitfires and both after the raid (21Aug42 and 29Aug42). His unit was flying out of St. Omer-Wizernes at the time and very likely involved in the fight over Dieppe. As far as I've been able to find out so far, Priller didn't bail out of an airplane on the day of JEJ's claim and JEJ did in fact shoot down a 190 that day. I could be wrong but  so far there doesn't seem to me to be any chance of it being Priller.
Re: Spit V vs Fw's - give me the Fw any day . The Spit V won't roll, run or zoom with the Fw so the MkV is on the defensive if the Fw driver's paying attention.


Cheers,

Storch's contention was that it was a Mark IX spit, that was what cauight my eye.  A MkV vs. an A2 makes more sense to me.  Also, your discussion here makes my point about going off on anecdotal stories from books of war heroes.

Sakai

[Batz]

5. Need I even go into the Allied bomber whine?


Please do. Address the A6Ms diving ability while your at it. Pull out some data on the N1K2-Js cannons too. You know, how a single hit will sever a F4Us wing at the root.

All planes exceed their max recommended diving speed in AH, everyone.

The type 99 mk2 in AH are well modeled and I doubt you could produce a film of a one-ping wing separation. That’s the same whines folks through out about hispanos. Don't equate hit sounds with the number of actual hits. Urchin had long thread a while back dealing with 1-ping hits.

The issues with the type 99 mk 1 and MG FF have been brought up a number of times. The MG FF seem to suffer most because the Minengeschoß rounds don’t seem to be modeled at all. It’s not entirely clear whether HT has modeled the MG FF/M or standard MG FF (109E-3) or created some hybrid round.

The problem with the MG FF was that its low muzzle velocity meant a longer flight time and trajectory drop etc reducing hit probability. Not that its damage was greatly reduced.

This particularly affects the Minengeschoß round. In reality it needed enough velocity to penetrate the skin of an aircraft. Granted the higher its velocity at impact the deeper it would penetrate before exploding. However, the Minengeschoß rounds were designed to destroy the structural integrity of stressed skinned all metal aircraft. They were effective in doing this. They had a harder time with the cloth-skinned aircraft such as a Hurricane.

In the 2 Pac scenarios featuring the a6m2, we told folks to only aim control surfaces. They were a number of folks who produced films of a6m2's unloading at 200 yards or so in an F4F and it just flying away.

There are real issues with the type 99 mk 1 and MG FF that are unique to these rounds. That’s not to say that after X amount of complaints that to continuing to bring it up isn't whining, it is.

The diving abilities of some planes in AH are certainly over done compared to real life accounts. But if you decide to test all of the planes in AH no one plane has a unique advantage. Whining about 1 over the other is just that, whining. Above 375mph the a6m2 ailerons begin to lock any way. Regardless of it max dive speed in AH; diving to escape or to pursue is not a good idea in the a6m2.

I will check back to look for your 1 ping wing separation film.

[ergRTC]

I have separated the entire rear fuselage with a single ping from a nik.  Not sure if there was existing damage.  probably.

As far as unloading your weopons, in one account I read, either in "an ace of the eigth" or a compilation of pilot written stories cant remember which, a p47 pilot was bringing a very wounded bird back from europe.  His prop was hit and he was so scared that he was close to dead sticking it back over the channel.  A fw190 got behind him and unloaded everything he had into that plane.  I think he only had mg left, but he made several slow passes.  Filling the plane with lead, pulling along side and looking at the damage, then going back, filling it with more lead and so on.  Finally he saluted and flew away.  

Pilot landed safely at an airfield in england.

Not sure how great the axis mg were....

[ergRTC]

That must be it, cant imagine that happened to too many guys.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by detch01
I could be wrong but  so far there doesn't seem to me to be any chance of it being Priller.

Thanks, ASW.

- oldman

[ergRTC]

a6m2 and a6m5 should dive without compression?  ummmmmmmm okay.  Can you say ufo?

max functional speed of the zeros was really about 400 mph.  Oscar (often mistaken for the zeros) was 50 mph slower than that.  Anything over 350 in the oscar and the skin would peel off the wings.

[Batz]

The a6m2 had problems shedding its skin in high-speed dives 350 or higher). This isn’t modeled in AH. In fact when the a6m2 came to AH I dove to 623 mph and pulled using trim. I posted the film and screen shots. It is an "issue" but it’s an "issue" for all planes in AH.

The a6ms don't compress, their controls become heavy the faster you go. It has large ailerons. AH models these right inline with what one would expect. An F4F can easily escape an a6m2 in AH by diving to 375 then rolling quickly to the right and pulling up. The a6m2 can't follow this.

Storch,

You can “moan” all you like, it doesn't matter to me. I have been in AH a long time. These issues that you are discovering are things that have been whupped to hell and back and nothing has changed. Don't expect it to. This quickest way for HT to ignore you is to call him biased etc.

[detch01]

Originally posted by Sakai
Storch's contention was that it was a Mark IX spit, that was what cauight my eye.  A MkV vs. an A2 makes more sense to me.  Also, your discussion here makes my point about going off on anecdotal stories from books of war heroes.

Sakai

Sakai, that's what caught my eye too . I agree 100% with you - autobiographical war stories, as entertaining as they are, aren't generally accurate enough to be useful historical sources on their own. They can be a good place to start a little research but they only give you a superficial view of what actually happened.


Cheers,

[Arlo]

Originally posted by storch
IIRC "compression" only occurs as you approach the speed of sound.  No japanese plane ever even came close, even diving.  That was the realm of the heavy and powerful USAAF and some USN fighters and maybe the typoon /tempest.  I believe most notably the P38, P47 & P51.  the ailerons on some japanese did lock up but not the elevators or rudder.

No difference from Warbirds:

http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/basic-physics.html

It's probably a conspiracy.

[ergRTC]

I had always called the stiff controls at high speed compression.  Not sure if that is accurate or not.  Warbirds has this in their definition.  Not that i trust it...

"Note that some aircraft compress at slower speeds, such as the A6M Zero and Messerschmitt Bf 109. These aircraft are lighter than most others, and sustained high speeds in level fight can begin to compress their control surfaces."

must be a conspiracy.  thanks arlo.

Yes it was from american aces, kinda worthless book, but it had a couple of good ww2 stories.

[detch01]

Originally posted by Oldman731
Thanks, ASW.

- oldman

Oldman My pleasure sir. My current project produced a blockage  between my ears and the change of scene this little bit of research filled it up and got me going again.


Cheers,

[Batz]

Heavy stick means stick forces are heavy, compression the controls can move but do to turbulent air over them you have no response to movement.

[ergRTC]

so which is it?  compression or hard to move control surfaces in spits doing 450 mph, or zeros doing 400?  Both effects are reduced as the plane slows...

[Slash27]

I will check back to look for your 1 ping wing separation film.

What do care, you dont play remember? I know, you created the CT, and so on, and so on.

I dont have film, what can I say, Im not a big filmer. Im not whining about it as I was flying the N1K. Maybe the Hog had damage, Im not sure. It appeared intact but who knows. I shot at him head on, saw a single sprite on the right wing root, the right wing came off.  I actually had this happen twice that week. Most likely its a rare occurence.I have no reason to lie about it but Ill keep the film rolling so I can prove it, or maybe I wont.

it's really more like 10-15 pings to do the job properly


I gotta call bull**** on this Storch. A few hits from the N1K will remove the bellybutton from a F4U with ease. The F6F is much tougher than the Hog though Ill give you that. 10-15 hits seems a stretch. Now I have seen the FM2 take quite a bit if 20mm from the George and keep on trucking. I think you should fly Allied birds a bit more, things are skewed on both sides. Thats just the way the game is. We can only hope AH2 is the answer to our prayers.