formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)

[Hamish]

 

Originally posted by eskimo:
Originally posted by Sabre (Rojo)

{SniP}
                         

Read the artical a while back, thought it was Very informative, and try to apply it to fighters when doing scenario's as well. It IS possible to fly in formation, although very difficult and requires practice, and good communication. (RW Helps Wonders for this)

<S!> Hamish!

[Citabria]

the only formations available in ah are variations of trail and wedge formations. all other formations like line abreast are impossible with the tiny field of view of the monitor.


formations in scenarios suck bad and are not at all realistic.

buffs in a gaggle fighters in a gaggle etc and they are always in a gagle even when the front 4 are in good formation the other 5-6-7 are all waddling around.

disorganized looking and not all that realistic

overall the skill to fly formation with this limiting interface is not present in the abilities of most players.


its along the lines of thinking of autotakeoff.

you may not need it but most others do, especially new or even skilled bomber pilots in large formations that are under  attack.


[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 11-11-2000).]

[Graywolf]

Guys, I know your trying to help, but any kind of auto formation will just make flying bombers tedious.

People come to Aces High to have fun, if it ain't fun they won't do it.

Please listen to the guys that have flown bombers a lot in online sims. Flying in formation can be done, but it not easy, that is where a lot of the fun lies.

I don't mean to offend people but people who mostly fly fighter trying to 'fix' bombers just isn't going to work.

Just to muddy the waters, what would go a long way to sorting out a /lot/ of the complaints, is bomber auto-gunners. Now I know that would be unpopular (mainly with the fighter people) but without it you really are not going to see much use of bombers in Aces High.

Right now a bombers defensive capability consists of one rather large scatter gun, not 4 or more separate machine gun positions.

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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

[Hamish]

I have to disagree with that on some extent Cita, i flew in a pac-rim even quite a while back that was simulating B-29's hitting tokyo. The formation of B-17's we had, while not a perfect "box" formation, was very good for a sim imho. We certainly ripped the fighters that were attacking us to shreds with the overlapping FOF once we got near the target. had to wake up at 7:00 AM to get to that event, was quite fun all in all and i was impressed with the professionalism of it.

Hamish!

P.S. you going to come back somtime Cita? I almost miss gettin' shot outta the sky by ya  

I stress the word "almost"  

[SKurj]

Have it only work between similar aircraft
such that only 17's can fly in formation, and not a combination of Lancs and 17's in the same formation.

SKurj

[eskimo]

LOL Graywolf;
Do you know who the supporters of this idea in this post are?

Tour 9, time spent in bombers:

Citabria = 20 hours
Sax =      25 hours
AKcurly =  30 hours
eskimo =   40 hours

Graywolf = 14 hours

And Graywolf;
Auto-formation would be a heck of a lot more fun than riding along as someones gunner.  
A big formation is fun just to watch.  
You might make it to your target a bit more often, aint that fun?  
YOU CAN FLY MANUALLY AND USE AUTO-FORMATION ONLY WHEN IN THE GUNS, IF YOU WISH!

Hamish,
Drive a 12 ship formation deep into enemy territory, to the HQ.  See how many fighters come at you at once.  See how tight your formation is after everyone has been manning the guns for 10 minutes or so.

eskimo

[Sunchaser]

Bring escorts, lots of them.

No more auto gunning than we already have for me please.

I know a good fighter pilot can waste a bomber formation, Citabria has wasted several of mine in the past but that was my fault for going without proper escort.

I never flew B17s, or anything else online in WB but did here and in SDOE and getting and keeping formation to, over and back from the target is what it is all about.

Bombers are boring to most people already and there is not much place for them in the Main arena and I flew them less and less as the tours rotated toward vehicle warfare.

Making them attractive to more people by adding AI capabilities might work but it probably will not happen and I for one hope it does not, I need reasons to come back, not more to stay away.

Eskimo, good points for sure but # 2 is so 2000, sort of like "this is way too hard so the makers must make it easier so I can play the game instead of learn the game."

Number 3 is good too but including a gunner makes it invalid.

OK, all these ideas from all of us are based on our expectations from AH and they are different.

So different in fact that, as excellant as Sabres formation holding tutorial is and the fact that it works very well indeed, the words "flying from the nose gun position" totally nullifies it for me, B17s were not flown from the nose gun position.

That method is great, it works, just not for me.

I guess the point, if there is one would be Learn the sim within computer screen limitations and use whatever "reality" you think applies.

As if any of this stuff realy matters anyhow.




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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

[eskimo]

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, but;

B-17s were never opperated by 1 man.

This is the main point!

Sunchaser;
My third point did not indicate adding a gunner, the pilot becomes the gunner.

And;
When you are in the guns, who flies the plane?

eskimo

[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 11-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 11-11-2000).]

[Sunchaser]

Eskimo, when I am in the guns I hope I am lead.

I am well aware that B17s were crewed, carrying a gunner is the best we got for now and there are at least some guys out there who would rather gun than fly.

B17s also went down in great numbers without escorts, AH sure has that aspect covered.

Given dedicated bomber pilots, dedicated gunners and dedicated escorts B17s could survive and be effective in even the main arena without AI involvement.
It would require many more simmers than we have at the present time though.

Look, I am not trying to change any minds here or piss anyone off., just wasting time stating my opinion 'cause I can.

Hell, I am not even paying anymore so what I think means even less than it might have 2 weeks ago.

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Bomber formation auto pilot wouldnt be realistic in any way. Formation flying is a skill that has to be learned. We allready have level, climb, auto-trim, and take-off autopilot we dont need any more. Just tell your guys to form up on you and hit auto level then coordinate changes. But an automatic formatin switch would be terrible in scenarios too. The whole tactic of interceptors in WW2 was to break up the formations and kill individual isolated planes after, with this magic formation autopilot that would be impossible. Soon well see guys asking for autopilot landings, the autopilot zoom climbs, autopilot dives, autopilot shooting down, autopilot running away, autopilot this and autopilot that. Bombers have it good enough as it is with their hispano 50cals, B52 high alt FM, laser guided accuracy from 35000 feet and god knows what else. Sorry to sound so ticked off but it seems some aspects of AH are beggining to slip in realism and this would just add to it.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[SKurj]

No autogunners...
just auto formation, with realistic ceilings for buffs!!

SKurj

[cokerr]

I have never flown a B-17 mission without being shot down. Go auto-formation!

[Thunder]

Citabria,
With all due respect I can't find myself arriving at the same conclusion. Formation flying is a learned skill. It adds a demension of realism and accomplishment to the game. If everyone could just HOOK up then you could get huge globs of planes coming to one area then all these buffs are nothing more than a huge controlled flying AA battery. It could be abused and used as an flying Ack Platform flying through fighter duels. Flying formation is not that hard and is fun.
   
I know you remember many formations of past. It's not that hard, even a bunch of fighter jocks can do it too. Note the high cover..Lets keep it realistic and not Autodumb the game.

Thunder  

[GrinBird]

.form Skurj
Host: You are in formation with Skurj as leader.

Procedure... You form up manually on the leader, when you are satyfied with your position you type as described above. Then your plane will try to have same speed, climb, and heading as the leader. It has to have some kind of disable if the leader jerks too violently. Else the whole formation will go down in a spin if the leader looses a wing (could look cool though)
I never fly bomber myself, I am a Jabo freak but I think bomber formation would be nice.

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GrinBird

[Sancho]

This whole idea, for fighters or for bombers is a bunch o' baloney.  I have no problems maintaining formation, even in bomber, even from the guns.  It is a learned skill, just like ACM.

The trick is getting everyone into position before the attack.  Make sure everyone has the same .speed set and same throttle settings.  You can align yourself perfectly in the formation by using trim to make minute course adjustments.  Once you've got it formed up... don't mess with it!

If you cannot maintain formation while being attacked, do to lack of piloting skill, overtaxed SA, or damaged aircraft, you should and will fall prey to the interceptors.  Just like in real life.  I vote for no artificial assistance of this kind.

[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 11-12-2000).]