Author Topic: The Best Fighter Aircraft of all Time  (Read 17648 times)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #195 on: March 03, 2004, 08:27:39 AM »
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The Air War in the East
George Chen

Records kept by the German Air Force during World War II show that more than one hundred German fighter pilots were able to score over one hundred aerial victories apiece. Two of these men scored more than three hundred victories apiece, and thirteen others were able to account for two hundred each. When compared with the fact that the top American ace, Richard I. Bong, scored only forty victories against the Japanese, such figures are truly staggering (Shores 108). For a time, historians have questioned the accuracy of these figures, but since the end of hostilities, careful research has shown that the German crediting system was quite reliable. As a result, the figures themselves could no longer be disputed, but historians still felt it was necessary to come up with an explanation of why men like Germany’s Erich Hartmann, World War II’s highest scoring ace, was able to destroy some 352 enemy planes in a period of less than three years (Feist 117). As German records became available, it became obvious that the majority of victories scored by these “super aces” were accounted for on the Eastern Front. The theory developed by military historians was that due to the inferiority of Soviet pilots and equipment, air-to-air victories were easy to achieve in the skies above Russia, and as a result, these historians downplayed the achievements of these aces. Some historians have gone so far as to suggest that the destruction of a single American or British aircraft was equivalent to five Soviet planes (Overy 49). However, all these historians have arrived at an unsatisfactory conclusion because, instead of taking the entire picture into account, they have focused on only a few limited aspects of the air war, and, therefore, have made an incorrect judgment. A careful study of the other facts, such as geography, weather, and battle conditions, leads to an entirely different conclusion. Victories in Russia were not easily gained. Instead, it took great skill and talent to become an ace on the Eastern Front.

The air war over the vast Soviet Union can be seen as a two part conflict. The first lasted two years and ended in the summer of 1943. The second began that same summer and continued until Germany’s defeat two years later. During the first two years of combat, the Soviet air force was a huge, but unwieldy arm (Mizrahi 84). Many of its planes were obsolete by Western standards, and the majority were devoid of auxiliary systems such as hydraulic landing gear, bullet proof windshielding, oxygen, gun heaters, and even gunsights. Although Soviet equipment improved in the last two years of fighting, overall, it was still inferior to its German counterparts (Shores 129).

But what the Soviets lacked in quality, they made up with quantity. Throughout the war, the Red Air Force always flew in massed formations. Because the Soviet high command saw its air force as primarily a tactical arm, designed to support the army, Russian pilots flew at low attitudes where their ability to hit targets with bombs and cannon fire could be maximized (Overy 55). These Russian tactics made combat extremely dangerous for the Germans. When intercepting Russian formations, Luftwaffe pilots not only found themselves constantly outnumbered, but also extremely vulnerable to ground fire. Since most of the fighting took place around 2,000 feet, there was also the constant danger of crashing (Mizrahi 84).

“For the trained Luftwaffe pilot, however, these conditions offered the chance to score victories in bunches,” wrote historian Joseph V. Mizrahi (84). Diving out of the sun, an experienced “ace” and his wingman could often score three or four “kills” against the main bomber formation and then escape before the enemy could counterattack (Feist 53). Although such skills were not difficult to master, to perform them successfully on a continuous basis against a numerically superior enemy was. The war on the Eastern Front was always on the move, and this meant that tactical air support was always needed. On a typical day, it was not uncommon for a Luftwaffe fighter pilot stationed close to the front to fly between five to seven sorties in a twenty-four hour period, especially in the summer when the long North European day lasted from four in the morning until eleven at night. Because the enemy was always present, such routine proved to be exhausting. The gigantic air battles waged above the massive tank battles offered many targets. But it was also a place where one mistake could mean death. Mizrahi agrees: “This situation provided the opportunity to became an ace many times over, it also created a situation that could quickly end a combat career” (Mizrahi 84).
The battle was unending, the pressure to join combat unrelenting, and even though the Russians were not the most sophisticated of antagonists, the Germans always found themselves short handed. Hartmann once remarked that “thirty of us against 300 of them usually evened things out” (Mizrahi 84). However, even during the first two years of fighting, German pilots often found themselves in a much more desperate situation. When faced with such overwhelming odds, simply to survive was an accomplishment (Overy 57).

“Combat for Luftwaffe aces on the Eastern Front was similar to the oft-told dilemma of the Dutch boy with his finger in the dike,” wrote Mizrahi “the only difference being that there were more leaks in the structure than there were fighters on hand” (84). During the middle of 1943, however, the number of “leaks” increased, and the air war took a dramatic turn. The Russians took the initiative from the Germans, moved from defense to offense, and stepped up their pressure on all fronts. Although the Red Air Force had suffered huge losses, more planes of better quality were arriving at the front than the Germans could match (Overy 57). In addition, the skill of Soviet pilots also improved. The Russian offensive meant persistent bombing, and although bombers offered easy targets, they were now better protected. Members of the Guard Regiments, Soviet Union’s elite air unit, often provided the escort. Aces themselves, they flew planes that were faster and better armed. The gap that had existed between the Luftwaffe and the Red Air Force was closing quickly (Shores 131). In time, it would all but disappear. To even things out, Germany’s best pilots flew sorties around the clock, and it was during this time that many of these “super aces,” such as Hartmann, scored the majority of their kills. Under such pressures, the scores that men like Hartmann were able to run up are truly extraordinary (Feist 119).

But even the best crack occasionally under extreme pressure, and because a German pilot flew so many sorties, the chance that he would be shot down was very high. In fact, Gerhard Barkhorn, Germany’s second leading ace with 301 victories, was shot down nine times, and Hartmann sixteen. Yet both managed to survive the war (Mizrahi 37). Others, such as Otto Kittel and Anton Hafner, who scored over 470 victories between them, were not as fortunate (Shores 108). To be a great pilot was not enough. To amass a large number of kills, one had to be a great survivor and sometimes just plain lucky. The air over Russia was a very unforgiving place. Those who were unable to adapt to the conditions and continued to operate on the narrowing margin for error were quickly eliminated. Only the most able survived, and in time, a nucleus of “super aces” came to exist (Feist 116). “Their proficiency could not be matched anywhere,” wrote Mizrahi, “simply because nowhere else had pilots operated for so long, under such adverse conditions, and survived” (88).

The pilots of JG 52, stationed from 1941 onwards on the Eastern Front and considered by many as the best air wing of the Luftwaffe, claimed 11,000 aircraft destroyed during World War II, an indisputable proof of the scale of fighting that took place over the steppes of Russia (Feist 104). Although most German pilots were quick to point out that the caliber of fighter pilots in the West was definitely superior, they still found themselves more willing to serve against the Western Allies than against the Soviets. Hans Philipp, who scored 206 victories, once remarked that he was more willing to “dogfight a Spitfire,” than to “fight against twenty Russians out to kill you” (Mizrahi 88).

The foe in the West may have been more skilled, but combat there had its compensations. While the bomber streams were anything but easy to intercept, the Germans did have the advantage of fighting over their own airspace. And although the enemy was better armed and trained, there were fewer of them, and they came less often. In addition, quarters were permanent, food and drink were plentiful, and the pilots did not have the added strain of having to constantly change locations (Feist 71). Such was not the case in Russia. Russia was a crude and unforgiving place. While the 11,000 kills of JG 52 stands as everlasting proof of the skill and tenacity of its pilots, it also symbolized six sorties a day in good weather, few intermissions, rare leave, and perpetual combat (Shores 103). This kind of climate produced great aces. It also ended the lives of countless less able pilots.
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #196 on: March 03, 2004, 08:28:14 AM »
... continued.

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Life on the Eastern Front was always on the move. The massive ground offensives that have come to characterize war in Russia often meant that units had to move hundreds of miles in a matter of weeks. As a result, a fighter pilot could be stationed in as many as twenty or even thirty different places in the course of a year, all depending on where the pressure was the greatest (Overy 58). Therefore, there was little time to build permanent bases or airstrips. Instead, the Germans had to improvise. Luftwaffe pilots were frequently quartered in schools, farming buildings, or anything that could withstand the fierce Russian winter. In most cases, these buildings had no electricity, and were, instead, illuminated by gaslight or candles, which themselves were rarities. Mud, dust, and “a fly infested nightmare of seemingly endless, insufferably humid days,” wrote Mizrahi, were the constants in warm weather (Mizrahi 88). Although winter brought more permanent quarters, it also meant numbing cold and weeks of snowed in isolation. As Mizrahi said:

“Life in that frozen world has never really been related in the West, and statistics
do not tell the full story.”  “What is known, however, is that there was no respite
from combat. The Luftwaffe’s fighter pilots did not close down for the winter
season, and, in fact, when they flew, did nearly as well in winter as in summer”
(Mizrahi 88).

To understand how men like Hartmann and Barkhorn were able to run up such incredible victory scores when the top aces of the Western Allies managed no more than forty, one has to remember that the Luftwaffe aces flew up to ten times as many sorties, and they usually met an enemy willing to engage (Feist 116). Targets were plentiful, and these “super aces” never had to go far to search for them. The longer they flew, the more they learned, and in time, these pilots “discovered techniques that few other pilots could employ, simply because they did it so often and under such unrelenting pressure” (Mizrahi 88). The Germans did not have a magic number of missions, like the Americans, that a pilot had to complete before he was rotated home (Shores 54). Only death retired a Luftwaffe pilot, and so those who survived amassed a unique type of experience that no training school could ever teach. “They truly became experts in their grim business and eventually flew into a realm of proficiency unknown and unknowable to others,” wrote Mizrahi. “Pressure will always promote performance, and in the case of the Luftwaffe’s aces, unrelenting pressure gave rise to truly amazing exploits. It also caused the death of many pilots who had nothing more to give” (Mizrahi 88).

Finally, it must be said that the conditions that applied to German pilots also applied to Russian pilots. In this world of non-stop fighting, the Russians were able to produce many incredible aces themselves. Ivan Kozhedub with 62 victories and Aleksandr Pokryshkin with 59 were two of the most famous (Shores 133). And as the war progressed, the number of aces in the Red Air Force increased dramatically. One of Hartmann’s final victories was a Russian ace who had scored 26 victories, proving once again that to completely downgrade the quality of Russian pilots is unjustified (Mizrahi 96).
The Luftwaffe claimed the destruction of approximately 42,000 Soviet aircraft during World War II. Although the Germans only claimed a total of 25,000 victories against the American and British, the notion that “kills” were easier to gain on the Eastern Front is not true (Feist 118). The Russians were a formidable enemy in the sky, and although, they were not as well trained or equipped, they were tough, combative, and incredibly brave. Forced to fight a ceaseless battle always outnumbered, thousands of German pilots lost their lives. Only those who survived these titanic battles could hope to become great aces, and in time, these men became a truly remarkable group. Mizrahi agrees: “Because they were always outnumbered, because their living conditions were the most primitive by far, even worse that that of Africa, those German fighter pilots who survived the war in the East are a very special breed. Their accomplishments cannot be overlooked or played down” (Mizrahi 88).

Bibliography

Feist, Uwe, Norman E. Harms, and Mike Dario. The Fighting 109. Garden City, NJ: Doubleday & Company Inc., 1978.

Mizrahi, Joseph V. Knights of the Black Cross. Granada Hills, CA: Sentry Books Inc., 1972.

Overy, R. J. The Air War: 1939-1945. New York, NY: Stein and Day, 1980.

Shores, Christopher. Fighter Aces. London: The Hamlyn Publishing Group Limited, 1975.  



When you look at the numbers Hartmann flew for almost three years on the Eastern Front, the greatest battle in the history of human conflict. Is it really so hard to believe that he managed to shoot down two planes per week?

Günther Rall served for the entire war and scored his first kills in the Battle of Britton. After the BoB he fought in Greece and over Crete, before being posted to the Eastern Front where he fought most of the war ... including in the battles of Dniepropetrovsk and Stalingrad. He was of course extremely lucky to survive the war, and was wounded several times. Is it really so hard to believe that he on average managed to shoot down one enemy plane per week?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 08:55:01 AM by GScholz »
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #197 on: March 03, 2004, 08:40:10 AM »
Ah ... and I was wrong. Hartmann was shot down sixteen times, not eight.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #198 on: March 03, 2004, 11:01:45 AM »
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Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
The trouble with your logic is that it aint working in real life. The forgot the fun part... not only Priller flew 1307 combat missions... he also SURVIVED THEM every time.

Put Gabby and Priller in the same Jagdgescwader. The result will not change. Priller will survive 1307 combat missions, knock down 101 planes, 2/3 of them being Spits...

Whta Gabby will do, is flying 192 combat missions, knocking down 28 planes, perhaps even lead the killboard for a time, then he gets shot down on the 194th Mission just the same, and spends the rest of the war in Scotland or some other place.

Like I said, the German aces not only ranked up a huge number of kills, but also survived all those missions, against all chances. What was the chance for that, taking loss rates as base ? Marginal, a pilot would be likely to be shot down on the by the 100th sorite of his. Yet somehow these guys were not.

You ain`t telling me that those 1307 sorites were easy rides over France and the Channel, do you ? After all, he met Spitfires, for most of the time, didn`t he ? ;)  Some day you will have to accept that the simple reason for those score is that by the the grim of fate Germany was blessed with having the best aviators of all time during WW2. Simple as that. Those guys were just damned good. And they gained so much experience during all those sorties as nobody else. They had the opportunity to fly superb fighters, use effective tactics. None of the Allied pilots had such background, during the whole period of war. The Experten on the other hand, enjoyed these for a full six years. After all, pray tell me if there was other reason why the Allied losses were so high - they outnumbered the Germans in practically every case, yet they lost many times the manpower and equipment in the air. Why, Guppy? Forget all the rest, just answer this single question. My answer is better overall quality (planes, tactics, experience).


No question they were good, but so were the pilots of other countries.  Keep in mind that had Gabreski been flying with JG26 he would have been over his own turf and NOT strafing an airfield over England, so he would not have become a POW.  Pips wasn't over England when he flew those 1300 missions.  For the majority he was on the defensive over his own turf where if he went down, he could be back flying again soon :)

The issue still remains the same.  Put any group ofwell trained pilots in the situation described and you will turn out those kind of numbers.  Tactics will evolve, experience will be gained.  In the end, feel sorry for those LW drivers who had to fly all the time.  What a horrific system that would put that kind of a demand on a man.  I doubt any Allied pilot would have traded places with them just to pursue kill numbers and I can bet that many a LW pilot would have appreciated the Allied system that allowed them a greater chance of survival and a break from the pressures of combat.

I think sometimes people forget that these pilots were also just people doing a very dangerous job.  It's easy to try and make them supermen, but in my mind that negates their accomplishments, as they were ordinary men, doing extraordinary things.  And I mean that in reference to what the soldiers, sailors and airmen of all the countries had to endure during that war.  I remember as a kid thinking that fighter pilots were literally bigger then life.  They always looked huge in the photos.  Then as I got older I was able to meet and get to know a lot of WW2 vet pilots, and they were not larger then life.  They were just decent people.  Most had gone on to do other things postwar, raising their families, working their jobs and getting on with their lives, just like anyone would.  That these ordinary men had done what they had done under the stress of combat made them bigger heros to me.

Obviously we'll disagree about aircraft quality as I'd say that it was a seesaw back and forth in development with each side having the edge at times.

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Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #199 on: March 03, 2004, 11:11:05 AM »
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Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Some day you will have to accept that the simple reason for those score is that by the the grim of fate Germany was blessed with having the best aviators of all time during WW2. Simple as that. Those guys were just damned good. And they gained so much experience during all those sorties as nobody else. They had the opportunity to fly superb fighters, use effective tactics. None of the Allied pilots had such background, during the whole period of war. The Experten on the other hand, enjoyed these for a full six years. After all, pray tell me if there was other reason why the Allied losses were so high - they outnumbered the Germans in practically every case, yet they lost many times the manpower and equipment in the air. Why, Guppy? Forget all the rest, just answer this single question. My answer is better overall quality (planes, tactics, experience).

Well.  I guess this has to be a troll.  Isegrim seems to be too bright to actually believe this.

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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #200 on: March 03, 2004, 11:28:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
After all, pray tell me if there was other reason why the Allied losses were so high - they outnumbered the Germans in practically every case, yet they lost many times the manpower and equipment in the air. Why, Guppy? Forget all the rest, just answer this single question. My answer is better overall quality (planes, tactics, experience).



A very simple answer.  Who was the attacker and who was defending?  The LW faced the flak guns for how long?  The Allied bombers were over Germany without fighter escort for how long?

The defenders hold many of the advantages, the radar control, shorter duration flights, over their own turf etc.  Yet they never turned back the attacking Allied bombers and fighters.  And naturally with the continuing increase in numbers of Allied aircraft, the numbers lost are also going to increase, but we've been through that.  percentage wise, losses dropped and flak was the greater risk then the fighters.

Keep in mind if I send 270 unescorted bombers and lose 60, those losses are devasating and not sustainable.  If I send 1100 bombers escorted by 900 fighters and I lose 60 aircraft, those losses are sustainable/tolerable and that's what was happening. No matter what the LW did, the Allied Air Forces just kept coming.

You keep trying to present it like the LW accomplished something.  Hate to break it to ya, but they lost. Those 352 kills of Hartmann accomplished what?  Getting him 10 years in a Soviet POW cage? Command of a West German Fighter Wing flying American designed F86s and 104s for NATO? A spot on the Airshow circuit in the US before his death? Did it keep the Soviet Air Forces from hammering German ground troops?  Seems to me the Soviet Army still ended up in Berlin anyway.


Once again, you put any group of well trained pilots in a similar situation to what the LW drivers faced and you will turn out the same sort of numbers.  You gotta quit dehuminizing those men by trying to make them supermen.  In the end THAT becomes the bigger insult to what they accomplished and endured as human beings.

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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #201 on: March 03, 2004, 11:52:16 AM »
It is pretty clear that some people here have axes to grind. We all know who won the war. That has never been the issue, and has no bearing on the discussion. Like all wars WWII was won on a strategic level. No soldier could change the outcome.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #202 on: March 03, 2004, 12:34:45 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
It is pretty clear that some people here have axes to grind. We all know who won the war. That has never been the issue, and has no bearing on the discussion. Like all wars WWII was won on a strategic level. No soldier could change the outcome.


I would agree with you GScholz, but if you are referring to me, I think you miss my point.

To somehow Mythologize German fighter pilots into some kind of supermen is doing them a great disservice in that it minimizes what those who survived accomplished under very difficult circumstances.  They were not 10 feet tall, they were not made of titanium, they did not have X-Ray vision nor a big "S" on their chests, regardless if some folks want to believe that.

And to somehow portray them as 'better' then any other pilots is also wrong, and I suspect they would tell you the same.

As I've said over and over, if you put a group of well trained US, RAF, Russian, Finnish, Norwegian, name your country, Pilots into the same circumstances as those faced by LW pilots, you'd see the same result.


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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #203 on: March 03, 2004, 01:14:59 PM »
No the German pilots were just human ... like everybody else. But one must admit that the LW by far had the most experienced individual pilots. As a whole, the Allied air forces had more experienced pilots by the end of the war, but those few "Experten" still alive in the LW were unmatched ... and still are unmatched when it comes to combat experience which directly relates to skill. Given time and opportunity, I see no reason why the Allied airmen should not achieve similar results. However they did not have the same time or opportunity as their LW counterparts, and I would surmise that the LW "Experten" were by a significant magnitude more skilled in their aircraft than the best of their opponents.

However I fail to see how this has anything to do with the LW victory claims being correct or false.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #204 on: March 03, 2004, 01:53:28 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
No the German pilots were just human ... like everybody else. But one must admit that the LW by far had the most experienced individual pilots. As a whole, the Allied air forces had more experienced pilots by the end of the war, but those few "Experten" still alive in the LW were unmatched ... and still are unmatched when it comes to combat experience which directly relates to skill. Given time and opportunity, I see no reason why the Allied airmen should not achieve similar results. However they did not have the same time or opportunity as their LW counterparts, and I would surmise that the LW "Experten" were by a significant magnitude more skilled in their aircraft than the best of their opponents.

However I fail to see how this has anything to do with the LW victory claims being correct or false.


Basically I think it comes down to the perception that any document/statistic that is credited to German sources must be accurate and irrefutable, while anything else non-German is suspect whenever these threads come up.

As for Pilot expertise, I think you are not taking into account the stress of combat and the impact it had on pilots, soldiers etc.  One of the reasons the Allies had tour limits was because of this.  The RAF called it "The Twitch".  It referred to a point in a tour where the affects of constant operations began to show up in a deterioration of skills, pilots beyond caring that tooks risks that they would not have taken when they were at the top of their skills.  Fatigue and stress deadened the senses and reaction time so that they were not as effective.  And at a certain point there are only so many things you can do with an aircraft regardless of the hours in it.

How many of the 'experten' lost their lives because of this?  Look at the photos of Hartmann from beginning to end.  He looks like hell by the time he's done. Photos of Nowatny(sp) show the same.  Go back to WWI and look at the before and afters of Oswald Boelcke. Same thing.  

As for expertise, as I was typing this, the name of John Landers popped into my head.  He'd flown P40s in the Pacific from 41, then ended up in England in 38s and finally 51s.  He'd probably flown more varieties of missions then most of the 'experten' who were flying defensive sorties.  Landers didn't have that many kills, but his experience in those different roles is probably unmatched.  Does that make him a better pilot then anyone else?  I doubt it.  As for kills, he no doubt had far less opportunities then the 'experten' who were having the targets come to them based on the role they were in.

Hans-Ulrich Rudel logged 2530 combat missions.  Was he a better pilot then Hartmann with his 352 kills?  He only shot down 9 planes, does that mean Gabreski was a better pilot then Rudel since he got 28?  Hmmmmm, gets a bit tough to call then doesn't it.

So if you want to state that for example Hartmann had more kills then Johnnie Johnson, there is no arguement.  If you want to tell me that he was a better pilot, I don't know that, nor do you.

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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #205 on: March 03, 2004, 02:20:28 PM »
Many of the Experten probably were killed as a result of combat fatigue ... and the fact that statistics have a way of catching up with you.

We are now discussing things that are subjective, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I do believe that the Experten were better fighter pilots than their Allied counterparts. You don't, and that doesn't bother me at all. It's just an opinion, and it is irrelevant to the discussion. Why don't we just leave it at that?
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #206 on: March 03, 2004, 02:34:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Many of the Experten probably were killed as a result of combat fatigue ... and the fact that statistics have a way of catching up with you.

We are now discussing things that are subjective, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I do believe that the Experten were better fighter pilots than their Allied counterparts. You don't, and that doesn't bother me at all. It's just an opinion, and it is irrelevant to the discussion. Why don't we just leave it at that?


Fair enough :)

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Here, have a 109 profile on me.  Last one I did. Kinda like Emils
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #207 on: March 03, 2004, 02:52:23 PM »
Very nice indeed. I see it has a filtered SC intake, where did this Emil serve?




I'm partial to Fritz' myself :)



That's Marseilles btw.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #208 on: March 03, 2004, 03:02:54 PM »
JG27 Emil serving on Sicily in the Spring of 41

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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #209 on: March 03, 2004, 03:06:05 PM »
That would explain the filter. You do profiles as a hobby?
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