Author Topic: The Best Fighter Aircraft of all Time  (Read 17619 times)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #165 on: March 02, 2004, 10:42:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Fyi: I ran across this today in support of my position that the  British used terror bombing (from aircraft) in the 1920s. So key names pop up and its no wonder during ww2 bomber command decided on the tactics of "de-housing" of German civilians.


You can find some more source using Druzes and Lebanon as keyword see : http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/delta/druse1925.htm

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #166 on: March 02, 2004, 11:57:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Anyone who did a bit of reading before coming here (that excludes straffo right away) knows how strict the LW was about kill claims. Without eyewitnesses, they would not even start the confirmation procedure, not to mention accepting the kill, which in most cases required the wreck itself. And of course it wasnt just kill, or no kill, but there were half a dozen success categories, like well shot up, shot out of formation, confirmed destruction etc.

Anybody who read the JG 26 war diary can see for himself that are practically no confirmation of kills for the unit after the end of 1944 - kills were claimed, but not accepted , as there was no good enough proof, and the process was lenghty, taking sometimes a year.

Besides, kills of a pilot as stated in various literature are often different what the LW really accepted in RL. Knoke is often ragarded with some 50 kills in books - in newer editions he himself told that it is a misread by the atuhro, he had about 30 officially accepted kills.

Hmmm.  I've done a fair amount of reading before coming here, including the Caldwell's book.  Wish I had it here at the moment, because I believe he makes the point that there were no confirmation of kills for the unit after 1944 because the documents were destroyed.  In fact, stretching my mind waaay back, seems to me that he said what we really have are squadron "claims" for most of the latter part of the war, not confirmed kills at all.

Would love to know the source for the first paragraph of your note...the one about eyewitnesses and so on.  Because it appears to be completely at odds with known examples of false claims, such as when JG26 strafed old glider wrecks and claimed them as kills.

Knocke was proven to be a liar, I believe, particularly regarding a number of stories he told of the end of the war.

You may choose to believe that 100 German pilots shot down 15,000 planes, but frankly I think that is so completely at odds with the experience of all the other countries involved in the war that it is beyond belief.

- oldman

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #167 on: March 02, 2004, 12:11:08 PM »
Would love to know the source for the first paragraph of your note...the one about eyewitnesses and so on.

You said you have done a "fair amount" of reading on that... how come you are not familiar with the very basics.. What exactly have you read ?

Because it appears to be completely at odds with known examples of false claims, such as when JG26 strafed old glider wrecks and claimed them as kills.

Do you know the difference between a kill claim and a confirmed kill ?

Knocke was proven to be a liar, I believe, particularly regarding a number of stories he told of the end of the war.

"Proven"? When, where, by whom, in what?

You may choose to believe that 100 German pilots shot down 15,000 planes, but frankly I think that is so completely at odds with the experience of all the other countries involved in the war that it is beyond belief.

The experience of the other counties ?  Strictly from memo, Soviet losses were some 80 000 planes, Western Allied some 40 or 50 000. 130 000 in total.

The Germans lost some 7000 fighter pilots killed, plus a few thousend went missing.

Wasn`t the experience of other countries loosing many times the planes in total compared to the Germans, the Russians in particular ?

So yes, I choose the version about the 100 top German pilots knocking down 15 000 planes. It`s fully supported by the records of both sides. Besides, it was the aces that knocked down the planes, some 6% of the total pilot strenght was responsible for 50-60% of the kills. The rest were just assisting, perhaps never scoring a kill.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #168 on: March 02, 2004, 12:16:03 PM »
A typical LW kill claim procedure, from Ruy Horta`s site :

Luftwaffe Claims Confirmation Proceedure

As noted on the Luftwaffe Scoring and Awards System page, "victory claims" and "points" were two seperate issues. Whenever an Abschuss (Destruction) of an enemy aircraft was claimed a strict proceedure was followed before the claim was allowed.

Following the policy of "one pilot-one kill", the investigating authorities would determine if the claiming pilot was solely responsible for the destruction of the enemy plane. Every Abschuss had to be observed by a witness: either a ground observer or the encounter, the pilot's wingman, or a Staffelmate. Witnesses were necessary unless the victor's aircraft had been fitted with a gun-camera and the destruction of the plane or the vanquished pilot's bailout had been recorded on film, if the wreckage of the downed pilot or other crew crew member had been captured by German forces. In effect: No witness or tangible evidence - no victory.

Every Abschuss had to be confirmed by the Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe or Commander in Chief of the Air Force. Jagdwaffe pilots were at all times required to note their geographical position as well as the type and number of the aircraft in enemy formations engaged. Naturally, the victor was required to log the exact time of a kill, while he maneuvered for a tactical advantage over the remaining enemy aircraft! In addition, he had to observe other actions in the air in order to be able to witness victories by his Staffelmates. Upon landing, the claimant prepared his Abschuss report for review by the immediate supervisory officer, who either endorsed or rejected the claim. If endorsed, the pilot's report to the Geschwaderstab, or Wing Staff, which, in turn, filed its report and sent both to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM), or Air Ministry. After checking all the papers that were submitted, the official confirmation was prepared and sent to the unit. This very long bureaucratic proceedure sometimes took as long as a year! During 1944, another authority was created: the Abschusskommission, which received all reports on crashed aircraft remains found by search units. This commission checked conflicting claims between antiaircraft batteries and fighter pilots, and awarded credit for the victory to one claimant or the other. This system ensured that no more credits would be awarded than wrecks found.

The German system of confirming aerial victories was very effective in keeping human errors and weknesses within limits. Despite this, the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, or Luftwaffe High Command, considered the large victory totals during the early days of the Russian campaign as incredulous. On many occasions, they accused the Jagdgeschwader Kommodores of exaggerating the victory scores. In effect Goering was calling the frontline pilots liars. This was one of the grievances that brought about the Mutiny of the Fighters, or the Kommodores' Revolt Conference, in Berlin during January, 1945.

When a German fighter pilot scored a victory, he would call "Horrido" on the radio. This distinctive announcement of victory alerted his fellow pilots to watch for a crash or a flamer, as well as notify ground stations, which helped to confirm many victories.




Typical Luftwaffe Combat Report

Copy
 
Gottlob, Oblt.
  Base of Operation, on 23.6.1941
 1./JG No. 26
   
Combat Report
 
Start:
 20.11 hours (8:11 PM)
 Mission:
 Alarmstart (Scramble)
 Landed:
 21.04 hours (9:04 PM)
 
I flew as the protection Rotte of our Staffel, as our Saffelkapitaen engaged a Spitfire. Then I saw that three other Spitfires tried to get behind the Staffel. I engaged them with my Rotte. The Spitfires went into a tight turn. I turned also and climbed above them. I saw one Spitfire flying in a northwesterly direction. The Spitfire was over land at 19, 680 feet altitude. I flew behind him at a range of about 70 feet and the pilot did not take evasive action.

I fired all guns from the rear and below. I saw a lot of smoke and  parts falling from his fuselage and wings. The plane climbed and slowed and rolled over the left wing. It rolled 2 or 3 times. Then the Spitfire dived down. I dived after it and fired again. I pulled out of my dive and gained altititude. I turned into a bank and saw the Spitfire hit the water.

The pilot did not emerge from his plane.

Gottlob

 
Typical Luftwaffe Air Witness Report
(English Version)

auf Deutsch (in German)

Copy
 
Priller, Oblt.
 Base of Operations, on 23.6.1941
 
1./JG No. 26
 
 
Air witness report of victory by Oblt. Gottlob on 23.6.1941 (8:50 PM)
 
 
Oblt. Gottlob, flying in the 2 Rotte in my Scwarm warned me that I was being attacked from the rear. I went into a left turn while climbing and saw that my protection Rotte engaged more Spitfires at a higher altitude. I saw Oblt. Gottlob, who was alone, attacking a Spitfire from the rear and shooting at it. The plane belched black smoke and dived, and we followed behind it and watched it crash into the sea 26 miles northwest of Calais.

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #169 on: March 02, 2004, 12:16:32 PM »
Germany wasn't just any other country involved in the war Oldman. If you have a problem with the fact that 100 out of tens of thousands German pilots could amass 150 kills each during five years of war, then the problem is yours. How long did these 100 men fight? How many sorties did they fly? How often did they encounter the enemy? Compare that to "the experience of all the other countries involved in the war".
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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #170 on: March 02, 2004, 12:19:10 PM »
Typical Luftwaffe Victory Claim Report

Copy
 
1./JG No.26
 Base of Operations on 23.6.1941
 
Victory Report
 
1. Time (day, hour, minute) and area of victory: 23.6.1941 8:50PM Hour, 5 Km northeast of Calais
2. Name of victor:  Oblt. Gottlob
3. Type of plane shot down: Spitfire
4. Nationality of victim: England
    Serial No. or other markings: Cockard
5. How was it destroyed:
    a) Flame with dark smoke, flame with light smoke (cloud of smoke)
    b) Single part shot (which parts)   Body and wings
    c) Was it forced to land (which side of the Front, good or crash landing)
    d) If he crossed the lines did you still attack
6. How did victim crash (must be seen by victor)
    a) This side or other side of front
    b) Did it crash or crash-land or explode: (in water)
    c) If did not see crash, why not?
7. What happened to crew (dead, bail out or not see.)
8. Combat Report is attached.
9. Witnesses:
                     a) air:
                     b) ground:
10. How often attacked enemy plane: 1 attack
11. From which direction were the attacks: from rear
12. Range when shooting: 70 ft.
13. From which position was attack started: from rear below
14. Were the pilots wounded: -/-
15. Type of Ammunition: P.m.k.v.,Sm.K.L. Spur v. Br. Spr. Gr. M. Muni Va.m.Muni 06.
16. Ammunition used: 300 shots M.G. and 110 shots cannon
17. Type and number of weapons used: 2 MG and 2 cannon
18. Type of airplane used: Me 109E7
19. Added technical remarks: -/-
20. Was your plane hit: no.
21. Were you assisted (including Flak)

Signed





Luftwaffe Scoring System and Awards System

The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory. Their cardinal rule was: "One pilot-one kill." In contrast Allied pilots were allowed to share victories. If two pilots fired at an enemy and it went down, each Allied pilot received one-half of the kill. Carried to absurdity, it is conceivable that an Allied pilot could become an ace with ten or more half-victories, never scoring any victories of his own! The Luftwaffe system of awarding victories was impartial, inflexible, and far less prone to error than the American or British method. That is not to say that errors were not made, history shows that both sides during the "Battle of Britain" tended to overclaim victories on a scale of 2:1.

The German's recorded victories in one of three categories: Abschuss (Destroyed), Herausschuss (Seperation), and endgueltige Vernichtung (Final Destruction.) These three categories were used for assessing "points" towards awards. Only an enemy aircraft in an Abschuss was counted towards the pilot's overall victory tally. A pilot that brought down and enemy plane with a Endgueltige Vernichtung or Final Destruction of a damaged aircraft was not awarded credit for the "kill", however he did earn "points" for the aircraft's destruction.



Luftwaffe Points Scoring System  Aircraft-type:
 Abschuss
(Destroyed)
 Herausschuss
(Seperation)
 Endgueltige Vernichtung
(Final Destruction)
 

Single-engined fighter
 1
 0
 0
 
Twin-engined bomber
 2
 1
 1/2
 
Four-engined bomber
 3
 2
 1
 


The system recognized the fact that achieving a Herausschuss, that is, damaging a bomber enough to force it from its combat box, or "pulk" (as the Germans called it), was a more difficult task than the final destruction of a damaged straggler. The emphasis of the German fighter arm, the Jagdwaffe, was that of intercepting the Allied bombers. Dogfighting with Allied fighters was to be avoided if possible in favor of attacking the bomber stream when one was present. Decorations were awarded after the following point totals had been reached:



German Awards System  
Iron Cross Second Class
 1
 Iron Cross First Class
 3
 Honor Cup
 10
 German Cross
 20
 Knight's Cross
 40
 


The point system existed for the purpose of award qualification only. "Victory claims" and "points" were two distinct statistics. The requirements for the verification of victory claims remained unchanged; only the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) could confirm a claim, and this proceedure could take more than a year. The practice of claiming "Herausschuss" (seperations) died out in 1944 and many "seperation" claims were eventually awarded as "victories"; occassionally claims by other pilots were allowed for the "final destruction" of the same aircraft. This system led to a claims duplication by a factor of as much as two.



I hope this little cut/paste job will shine upon some minds that like to spell all those big words and sweeping statements on stg which they know next to nothing IMHO.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #171 on: March 02, 2004, 01:40:07 PM »
Quote
The experience of the other counties ? Strictly from memo, Soviet losses were some 80 000 planes, Western Allied some 40 or 50 000. 130 000 in total.

The Germans lost some 7000 fighter pilots killed, plus a few thousend went missing.


Mixing apples and oranges Barbi. Typical of your posts.

On one hand, Allied, he says a/c and one the other, German, he says pilot,:rolleyes: and just jagd pilots at that! :eek: :rolleyes: He also insults the pilots of other nations by not including them in the destuction of the EA total.

He also implies that all those 130000 a/c were shot down by LW pilots, forgetting that Flak was part of the LW.:eek: Goering even question why he had pilots because he had the Flak to shoot down enemy a/c.

He also kindly leaves out that not all LW shotdowns, at least in the West, where most of the combat took place, did not result in a pilot's death.

LW casualties to the end of 1944 were ~97000 KIA/WIA/MIA.

Of that 130000 he claims for the LW, not quite 60% of that number are those of the Jagdwaffe.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #172 on: March 02, 2004, 01:46:00 PM »
Try it again. Try to be constructive.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #173 on: March 02, 2004, 02:01:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Try it again. Try to be constructive.


Your post only shows how correct I was with your bias in the post.:)

It was constructive Barbi because it pointed out the deceptive and slanted bs you tried to pass off, to show how uber the jagdwaffe was. We all know how devious you can be but don't be  SO obvious next time.


btw, what was my online nick. You keep refusing to say. Proof that all your demented ranting was more of your typical BS lies.

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #174 on: March 02, 2004, 02:12:45 PM »
Yes MiloMorai, Hartman was shot down eight times I believe, and Galland was shot down twice in one day. That means that Hartman alone gave allied pilots eight kills, and Galland gave some lucky RAF pilots two kills in one day.

Now, in your latest moronic post you completely fail to see that Isegrim was comparing LW pilots to Allied AIRCRAFT losses ... which of course is what is being discussed now. LW aircraft losses are completely irrelevant to this discussion!

The top LW pilots are some of the luckiest, and skilled, individuals in the history of war. NONE of the Allied pilots had the opportunity to amass the same number of kills as their German counterparts did.
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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #175 on: March 02, 2004, 02:28:33 PM »
If that`s your constructive manner, I have no idea what is your post like when you`re sole intention is to destruct threads.

BTW... your online name was "Chicken". Great choice for a nick of yours, I must add. :D And yeah I shot you down 6 times in a row, lame duck looser. :aok

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #176 on: March 02, 2004, 02:29:47 PM »
What your moronic post shows Scholzi is that you cannot read. Barbi showed the  Allied total, to all enemy action, losses and claims them as ALL as jagdwaffe .:eek: :eek:

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #177 on: March 02, 2004, 02:34:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
... and claims them as ALL as jagdwaffe .:eek: :eek:


No he did not.
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #178 on: March 02, 2004, 02:53:08 PM »
Like GScholz in my reading of what Isegrim was saying was that he was comparing lw pilot losses to total allied losses to show that lw claims aren't as "impossible" as some may think.

I did not read where he claimed all allied losses were attributed to the jagdwaffe. He even mentioned 15000 of the total 130000 (his numbers).

Quote
So yes, I choose the version about the 100 top German pilots knocking down 15 000 planes. It`s fully supported by the records of both sides.


edited to include not
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 03:41:34 PM by Batz »

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #179 on: March 02, 2004, 03:05:08 PM »
So what's the point?  German pilots were forced to fly almost continuously from beginning to end.  Allied pilots did not have to suffer the same fate.  Does this make German pilots better?

Nope.  Put any well trained pilots in the same situation and the numbers would look the same

Are you stat fanatics going to start breaking it down to comparable kills vs sorties?

If you took one of the LW top guns and matched his first 200 combat hours with one of the Allied top guns, how does it figure out?  Is it similar?  I would imagine it is, but in the end I don't care.  

Many of the high scoring LW aces from the Eastern front, were killed on the Western front.  Does that mean the Russian pilots were worse?  Were the LW Aces just that tired that the West pilots were able to kill them easier?  Were the situations on the Eastern front different from an airwar perspective, as in were the Russian pilots at a disadvantage being so oriented to ground attack and protecting the troops that the LW drivers always had the advantage?

The questions, comparisons could go on and on.  That's where all this find a statistic to prove who was better is pointless in so many ways.

Oh, and btw every side overclaimed.  Hard to avoid it in the heat of battle.  And easier to confirm when the wrecks are falling on your own turf, but in the end that means you are losing so.........?


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