The Best Fighter Aircraft of all Time

[palef]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
I would like to know how VVS fliers could claim a kill if the wreckage could not be found, for this was a requirement for confirmation.

Simple - find some wreckage - any wreckage.

[MiloMorai]

Soviet kill confirmation was very strict, palef.

A 'kill' had to be observed crashing and the wreckage found. Any 'kills' claimed in German held territory, since the wreckage could not be found, would not be counted. Also if more than 1 a/c fired on an a/c that went down, unlike the Americans, no 'kill' was awarded to any of the pilots - it became a unit 'kill'.

So, not just any wreckage, but a specific new wreck in the area of the combat.

[Cobra412]

Overlag why do you bash the F-15 when there parked in your country, on one of your bases?  

And last time they told us it was 103 kills to no deaths for the F-15.  But that was years ago.  I'll have to ask the Boeing reps and see what the current numbers are.  And it says alot when not when most base Generals want to fly the F-15 over any other airframe on there base.  Maybe there biased who knows.

[Knegel]

Hi Widewing ,

maybe overclaiming in the war was common(so how few kills the best US-pilot had then??),  but if a pilot state after the war he had much more kills and you disagree(dont tell me you dont disagree), you call him a liar!!

If you have facts that specialy Kozhedub had less kills, please offer them, if not, you be the troll.


Greetings, Knegel

[straffo]

Originally posted by Widewing
Knegel, you aren't even a good troll....

Over-claiming was common. It was especially rampant with the Soviet Union and Japan (both IJNAF and JAAF). That does not make the pilots liars. Whimsical requirements for confirming kills, plus the absolute need by local commands to inflate scores were the primary reasons for extraordinary claims. However, you can bet your thick skull that there were examples of unscrupulous pilots who did lie about claims, and they could be found in every air force.

Now, if you have nothing else to offer...Sod off.

My regards,

Widewing

On a other end I would like you to back up your post.

Because if we start on the overclaiming research we can look more closely to some LW pilots and some surprise can be expected with pilots like Marseille for exemple  or Lang.


Milo I don't know how the LW HQ attributed some victory at the end of the war when the VVS plane was shot down behind the soviet front line and they were doing nothing except retreating all day long...

[Knegel]

Hi,

------------------------------
Milo I don't know how the LW HQ attributed some victory at the end of the war when the VVS plane was shot down behind the soviet front line and they were doing nothing except retreating all day long...
---------------------------------

Thats the reason why many kills never got confirmed, but for a german pilot it was enough if two other people(wingis or groundcrews) could confirm the kill, the wreck wasnt important, only the time and position of the impact.

Greetings, Knegel

[VO101_Isegrim]

Anyone who did a bit of reading before coming here (that excludes straffo right away) knows how strict the LW was about kill claims. Without eyewitnesses, they would not even start the confirmation procedure, not to mention accepting the kill, which in most cases required the wreck itself. And of course it wasnt just kill, or no kill, but there were half a dozen success categories, like well shot up, shot out of formation, confirmed destruction etc.

Anybody who read the JG 26 war diary can see for himself that are practically no confirmation of kills for the unit after the end of 1944 - kills were claimed, but not accepted , as there was no good enough proof, and the process was lenghty, taking sometimes a year.

Besides, kills of a pilot as stated in various literature are often different what the LW really accepted in RL. Knoke is often ragarded with some 50 kills in books - in newer editions he himself told that it is a misread by the atuhro, he had about 30 officially accepted kills.

[straffo]

You're blind or are unable to read Isegrim ?

I know certainly more than your the about the LW procedure.
 I was not questionning the procedure but more the kill tally of Marseille and Lang (among others)

Have you been able to access the Afrika archiv or the JG54 ones ?

After mid 43 in the east almost all frontline kills of the  LW are more than questionnable .

And if we speak about propaganda I've some old 'der adler' at home which are extremely funny to read some 60 year later

[VO101_Isegrim]

The only thing I am interested about you straffo is wheter you have born this way or your current mental state is a more lenghty proccess that took years of detoriation ?

I judge your knowladge by your posts and your site. Based on those, there is nothing to learn from you.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
The only thing I am interested about you straffo is wheter you have born this way or your current mental state is a more lenghty proccess that took years of detoriation ?

I judge your knowladge by your posts and your site. Based on those, there is nothing to learn from you.

I see Barbi is making new friends.  

Take note Scholzi.

[straffo]

Milo I've put him one ignore I should have done this early but I gave him benefit of the doubt.

So far the remaining credibility I gave him where already lost ,when he tried a "sub-pixel" demontration here
using his  superb drawing hability to proove nothing.

He have perhaps some knowledge of the 109 but unfortunately none outside this.
I've certainly not an extensive knowledge but a least when I produce a drawing I try to caption it correctly ...
especially when I'm the one making the drawing   .

[VO101_Isegrim]

Lot`s of talk, nothing to tell us.. Get out of here, Trolls. The more serious people are bothered by your child-like rantings.

Oh, and Milo... I am not "making a friend" here, just putting him back to his place. I do select my friends. I don`t need friends like him. I have friends, unlike you Milo. And I don`t need to launch flames to make someone bother to respond.

But you two make a perfect pair. The F.D.B. straffo, and the french-hater Milo. But they love each other, as both are Trolls.  

[Batz]

Fyi: I ran across this today in support of my position that the  British used terror bombing (from aircraft) in the 1920s. So key names pop up and its no wonder during ww2 bomber command decided on the tactics of "de-housing" of German civilians.

WSWS : News & Analysis : Middle East : Iraq

How the British bombed Iraq in the 1920s
By Henry Michaels
1 April 2003

The US and British governments, and most Western media pundits, have tried to explain the determined resistance of the Iraqi people to the US-led assault by referring to the first Bush administration’s 1991 betrayal of the Kurds in the north and Shiites in the south. Once Iraqis are confident that the Allies are serious about occupying the country, the argument goes, they will rise up and welcome them as liberators.

These assertions ignore the deeply-felt hostility to decades of colonial and semi-colonial rule by the Western powers, who long plundered Iraq’s oil reserves. During World War I, Mesopotamia was occupied by British forces, and it became a British mandated territory in 1920. In 1921, a kingdom was established under Faisal I, son of King Hussein of Hejaz and leader of the Arab Army in World War I. Britain withdrew from Iraq in 1932, but British and American oil companies retained their grip over the country.

One of the most bitter chapters in this history, one with direct parallels to the current military campaign, occurred during the 1920s. In many respects, the air war now being employed in Iraq is an offshoot of a military policy developed by Britain as it clung to its Iraqi colony 80 years ago.

Confronting a financial crisis after World War I, in mid-February 1920 Minister of War and Air Winston Churchill asked Chief of the Air Staff Hugh Trenchard to draw up a plan whereby Mesopotamia could be cheaply policed by aircraft armed with gas bombs, supported by as few as 4,000 British and 10,000 Indian troops.

Several months later, a widespread uprising broke out, which was only put down through months of heavy aerial bombardment, including the use of mustard gas. At the height of the suppression, both Churchill and Trenchard tried to put the most flattering light upon actions of the Royal Air Force.

British historian David Omissi, author of Air Power and Colonial Control: The Royal Air Force 1919-1939, records: “During the first week of July there was fierce fighting around Samawa and Rumaitha on the Euphrates but, Churchill told the Cabinet on 7 July, ‘our attack was successful.... The enemy were bombed and machine-gunned with effect by aeroplanes which cooperated with the troops’.”

The order issued by one RAF wing commander, J.A. Chamier, specified: “The attack with bombs and machine guns must be relentless and unremitting and carried on continuously by day and night, on houses, inhabitants, crops and cattle.”

Arthur “Bomber” Harris, a young RAF squadron commander, reported after a mission in 1924: “The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means, in casualties and damage: They know that within 45 minutes a full-sized village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured.”

The RAF sent a report to the British Parliament outlining the steps that its pilots had taken to avoid civilian casualties. The air war was less brutal than other forms of military control, it stated, concluding that “the main purpose is to bring about submission with the minimum of destruction and loss of life.”

Knowing the truth, at least one military officer resigned. Air Commander Lionel Charlton sent a letter of protest and resigned in 1923 over what he considered the “policy of intimidation by bomb” after visiting a local hospital full of injured civilians.

The methods pioneered in Iraq were applied throughout the Middle East. Omissi writes: “The policing role of most political moment carried out by the Royal Air Force during the 1920s was to maintain the power of the Arab kingdoms in Transjordan and Iraq; but aeroplanes also helped to dominate other populations under British sway.

“Schemes of air control similar to that practiced in Mesopotamia were set up in the Palestine Mandate in 1922 and in the Aden Protectorate six years later. Bombers were active at various times against rioters in Egypt, tribesmen on the Frontier, pastoralists in the Southern Sudan and nomads in the Somali hinterland.”

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Lot`s of talk, nothing to tell us.. Get out of here, Trolls. The more serious people are bothered by your child-like rantings.

Oh, and Milo... I am not "making a friend" here, just putting him back to his place. I do select my friends. I don`t need friends like him. I have friends, unlike you Milo. And I don`t need to launch flames to make someone bother to respond.

But you two make a perfect pair. The F.D.B. straffo, and the french-hater Milo. But they love each other, as both are Trolls.  

As usual your reading comprehension is nil:rofl  Sarcasim Barbi, sarcasim.

This thread was doing well until you started with the derogatory comments, as usual.

Now what would you call your posts to straffo and me. I would call them trolling for flames.

Are you saying there are more Nazi lovers like you around. So .

Still waiting for the name I used when I supposidly cussed you out after you supposidly shot me down so many times.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
I see Barbi is making new friends.  

Take note Scholzi.

So I see.

I wish people would just stop doing that.