Author Topic: Kerry on the military  (Read 1183 times)

Offline pugg666

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2004, 10:56:10 AM »
Gto,

The fire control is exellent, protection is adequate, and I'm sure it's reliable.

But it just doesn't have the right gun for the job, the bush master is great for infantry in the open and soft skinned vehicles. It needs something in the range of 75-105MM to give infantry good support. It is billed as an infantry fighting vehicle is it not?

I hate to say it (really I do) but the soviets got it right with the BMP-3. 100MM canon provides a lot better close support to infantry.

As it is now you have an overpriced M113 that has a better gun but can carry what? Half a squad?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 11:22:18 AM by pugg666 »

Offline GtoRA2

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2004, 11:24:28 AM »
Ok I can see that. Don't almost all the western infantry fighting vehicles have a small bore cannon like the bradley?


I thought you where going to come back with something like frog did, "the gun cant take out tanks"

Duh, it was not meant to, that's what the Tow missles and the M1 tank are for. lol.


Interesting point on the main gun as a not great support weapon for infantry though.

Offline Frogm4n

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2004, 11:29:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Ok I can see that. Don't almost all the western infantry fighting vehicles have a small bore cannon like the bradley?


I thought you where going to come back with something like frog did, "the gun cant take out tanks"

Duh, it was not meant to, that's what the Tow missles and the M1 tank are for. lol.


Interesting point on the main gun as a not great support weapon for infantry though.


You do realize that the bradley started out as what the striker is now. So 30 years later we are finally getting what the military asked for when they asked for the bradley.

Offline Finrod

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2004, 11:33:52 AM »
Ah hem....the Bradley does what it was meant to do. The 25mm IS adequate for infantry support and has been proven many times. It, however, was not designed to engage main battle tanks, yes thats what the TOW is designed to do. The BMP 3 is a death trap, as is all the BMP models. Whomever designed them was a major sadist. I ghave never been in a more user unfriendly vehicle then the BMP.The current upgrades to the brad were designed to overcome identified shortcomings in its early production run and they do just that. The M2/M3A2 are great vehicles and the next generation of brad will put the bar up even higher.

  One side note: The 25mm had many MBT kills in Desert Storm shooting sabot rounds.

Nakhui

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Re: Kerry on the military
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2004, 11:40:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Source: Washington Post

All I will comment on is this: If Kerry gets elected, don't fly commercial and move out of the large cities.


Sheesh..

Try comparing oranges to oranges.... how many military weapon systems did Bush support or veto while he was Governor or before that when he was a CEO of a company he lead into bankruptcy?

NONE.... not a very good record on defense wouldn't you say?

At least Kerry was in congress doing something for his country.
At least Kerry was brave enough to go to Vietnam and take a few bullets for the US of A... mean while pissy pants Bush was snorting coke and passing on his medical exams.

Congress Judical committee brought up rule changes for the special prosecutor today... was live on CSPAN radio.

Bush ain't going to white wash that CIA operative leak - someone is going to jail.. and if it leads to the President... he's going to be impeached.... yes... those words were said.. even by a several Republicans....

Congress is pissed, they were lied to.

Any one who reveals national security secrets for political gains is a traitor - not moral, not patriotic, not ethical....

There's someone working for Bush right now that has committed a felony and who is a traitor to this country- Bush is willing to deny American citizens their constitutional rights in order to fight terrorism...yet he's harboring a felon?

Offline GtoRA2

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2004, 11:44:02 AM »
Finrod

 What is the next bradley upgrade?

Offline kappa

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2004, 11:48:36 AM »
A 25mm SABOT round? Do you have links? I've never heard of such a thing........
- TWBYDHAS

Offline Finrod

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2004, 12:22:58 PM »
LOL, okay guys, the 25mm sabot is the M997 Armor Piercing Spin Stabilized Discarding Sabot. The brad shoots 2 kinds of rounds from the 25mm as of now, the sabot for armor targets and HEI round (High Explosive Incendarary) for use against soft targets like troops and wheeled vehicles. The next upgrade was published in Janes not that long ago, involves large scale changes to the ballistic computer and laser range finding capabilities as well as improved anti-armor and improved crew survivability. Us guys in the field haven't seen the new one yet but I for one am excited about it. I can't say much more about it guys, I hope the avatar explains why, but be assured your troopers in the field got some good equipment. It didn't all start out that way, but we fix what we find. :)

Offline rpm

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2004, 12:27:52 PM »
What the Republicans are banking on is the ignorance of the average American voter. They don't mention that there are multiple votes on each weapons system. Voting against a funding measure does not mean that the same measure wasn't later passed after the pork was trimmed or defects fixed. But they don't want to confuse you poor ignorant voters with FACTS.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 12:33:25 PM by rpm »
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Offline pugg666

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2004, 12:30:43 PM »
Finrod, re read my post please.

The role of the Bradley is to....
A.Safely transport Infantry to critical locations on the battlefield.
 
B.Provide fire support to cover their dismounted operations, and
C.Destroy enemy tanks and other vehicles that may threaten the Infantry it carries.

It accomplishes only part of A (need more bradleys than M113's due to only being able 6 troops), it does however have a lot more protection than an M113

B. now this is my main concern, like I said in my last post, the bushmaster is good against infantry in the open and light vehicle ( ya I guess it could penetrate something like a T-62 from the rear), It can hardly deal with troops in say a concrete building like a 100MM HE/HEAT could. Let's take it in the context of what we're all familiar with, WWII ( :D ) what half track would you rather have supporting you, an m3 with a single .50 Cal, or say a  Sd.Kfz.251/9 (7.5cm) with a nice short barreled 75MM?

It covers C very well, the TOW missile is an excellent weapon.

oh and I've never had the pleasure/displeasure of sitting in a BMP-3 , so I wouldn't know, but on paper it seems like it's a better concept.

Offline kappa

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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2004, 12:32:17 PM »
ahh thanks.. I had never seen that before. Its the M910 and the M919... LoL lil SABOT rds just like 120mm rds of the m1.. lol
- TWBYDHAS

Offline Finrod

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2004, 12:46:33 PM »
rpm: Read it, was part of it, we fixed it. I understand your concern though, I was concerned as well 20 years ago.

pug: Yep....and no. It does A just fine, it does B too, I'll put a TOW round into a bunker in a heart beat, but the gun would be undersized if you run out of TOW rounds, thats true. If I do run into this situation, its time to yell for the big boys or let the grunts do the job.

  "On paper" is what had us so scared during the 80s. On paper the soviet equipment looked just as good as ours. But Desert Storm and proceeding conflicts proved otherwise. I have had the displeasure... believe me bro...you ain't missed nothing. I still remember being handed what looked like a flak vest for my first ride in a BMP. It wasn't a flak vest, it was a padded vest to protect your ribs and kidneys from the ride, it was standard soviet issue. I use that story when I talk to young soldiers who complain about US Army vehicles. The best thing about the BMP, or "bimp" as we call it, is its very low height. Very hard target to spot at times.

    But guys, the brad is a fine vehicle, it does what we need it to do. If you want to get excited in a good way, look at the new Advanced Gun System. Its a quickly deployed tank. Light, spooky fast, and absolutely lethal in all environments. Unfortunetly, I'll be retired before we get it.:(

Offline rpm

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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2004, 12:52:36 PM »
Exactly Fin. My point is if they had not forced the changes by voting against it, you would be stuck with the original POS version.
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Offline Finrod

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2004, 12:55:43 PM »
Thats very true RPM, the stink raised resulted in a better vehicle. For which I am grateful.

Offline pugg666

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Kerry on the military
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2004, 12:57:10 PM »
Quote
Advanced Gun System


Would this by chance be the stryker?

I did a search for Advanced Gun System and all it gave me was the project for the naval gun. If you have a name I could use instead, it would be appreciated.

And, I'm just saying that you guys should up gun it, it will be a lot more versatile IMO.