Author Topic: Spitfire NACA reports  (Read 7354 times)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2004, 05:30:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Hmm, there must be a measurable picture around somewhere to check this out.Maybe someone will post something more accurate.
Anyway, I seem to recall that the Spit IX should be indistinguishable from the Spit V. Maybe that appeals to fast combat and not scrutiny, I do not know.
However, from my point of view, the Spit nose looks similar or longer than the 109's. Just my eyes ;)




Well I did some comparisons of forward view, taking my scale K-4 and spitty 14 drawings.. it`s all there to see, just a few comments:

1, Inverted Vee engine is broad at the base, an ordinary Vee engine is broader at the top. ONE of the advantages of using inverted-vee engines is that the upport cowling can be made nice narrow, plus it can angled down towards the prop - just see the picture.

2, The sighting view is thus better on the 109. Also, since the DB engines were built angled somewhat upwards compared to the sighthing line, and Motorkanone followed that, deflection shooting was even more easier...

3, The tall tail wheel of late 109s gave a distinct advantage, raising the tail on the ground improved forward vision during taxying, the cowling was less obstructive this way.

4, The Spit`s cocpit is also much more back, while the wing is forward, limiting sight over the wings.

5, Blue line shows best sighting line via the REVI. (connects REVI and cowling top)

6, Light blue line shows best taxying view over cowling. Connects apprx. pilot head position with top of the propellor hub.

7, The relative sighting angle of the two planes is show with pink. Also the relative size of the Spits forward fuel tank vs. the armament bay of the109 in front of the pilot .

It also nicely illustrates the old wisdom, why make something big if you can make it smaller and better ? ;) :p

Quote

This is something I am curious about. I always believed that the 109 was rather more nose heavy. Why? Lighter airframe with a heavier engine, and a more backward wing, hence center of lift.


Nah. The 109 was a taildragger, a nose heavy plane. The engine was NOT heavier, in fact it was very comparable in timeframe (early Merlin vs. DB 601 about 610kg, two stage Merlins vs. DB605 about 730 kg). In fact the two-stage Griffons were a good deal heavier, close to the DB 603 (Griffon 65 weighted 898 kg, DB 605 D 745 kg).

If the wing is backward, than it shift the CoG backwards, not fore.

Also if you note, the 109`s u/c, when extended, contacts the ground more forward than the Spit, it`s practically below centre of engine (in fact the 109`s u/c rests to some extent on the engine bearers... smart as usual). That shifts CoG even more backwards. The Spit`s u/c is under the back of the engine.
Moreover, fuel tanks... Spit : in front of pilot.. 109.. behind pilot (which means it gives some additional protection for pilot... smart again). Also on late 109s, MW50 tanks is even further back, that`s some 90-100 kg total, quite a weight.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2004, 06:42:24 PM »
Isegrim,

That Spit profile looks more like a Packard-Merlin 266 powered Spitfire Mk XVI than a Rolls-Royce Griffon 65 powered Spitfire Mk XIV.  The chin is rounded like on a Merlin Spit.

It was noted that the Griffon of the Mk XIV gave a bit better gunsight view than over the nose of Merlin Spits.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2004, 09:03:37 PM »
Hehe, Spit vs 109...once  again
And it has not turned inflammable yet?
First this:
" ONE of the advantages of using inverted-vee engines is that the upport cowling can be made nice narrow, plus it can angled down towards the prop"
I am quite well aware of this. This is definately in the 109's favour. This allowed a better view over the top, a better center of prop-power, and also, in that case, a cowling gun armament.
Then:
" deflection shooting was even more easier... "
Yup. Because of the formentioned view. Then, cental positioned guns even made that better.
Now we come to the not-agreed section.
First:
"Nah. The 109 was a taildragger, a nose heavy plane. The engine was NOT heavier, in fact it was very comparable in timeframe "
The Spitfire was a taildragger....practically any WW2 fighter was a taildragger (not P39 and P38, ok, and some....)
The DB engine was roughly the same weight pr time, pr power as the Merlin/Griffon. If anything, the cup goes to the Merlin, however, the difference is very little.
The engine of the 109 was however heavier in relation to the total weight, and the weight of the 109 was more forward compared to the center of lift. How about the C of G? I'd like to see more data on that, but I seem to recall that the 109's C of G would be more forward than the one of the Spit..
Also note that C of G shifts under G loads. That would not apply to taxxing though...
Then this:
"It also nicely illustrates the old wisdom, why make something big if you can make it smaller and better ?"
Well, there we go. This thread shall long live.
I can but say this. Pit those two together in a dogfight with equally skilled pilots, co-alt, co-E
In most cases with a historical setup (Timeframe), the Spitfire outperforms the 109. i.e., a Spitfire will be able to hold a 109 off without running, but not the other way around.
The engines match up closely. The airframes do not as much.
The Spitfire, being bigger, can be hurled around easier at almost any speed. In a co-weight + co-power situation, the difference would be quite marked.
Actually,the DB was tested both in Spits and Hurris.
While delivering roughly the original power, there was, - if anything - an increase in the performance of those airframes under DB-Power!
Finally....about your pics...
This is presumably a Mk XIV bubble-hood Spitty. It has as long a nose as they would get. It has a bit roomier cockpit than the 109 (almost any WW2 fighter had), and it looks as that your center of look-line is put higher in the 109. A pilot will only be able to put his head as high as it goes untill hittin the top, which seems to be LOWER in the Spits case.
Or is your LW man a Flathead?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2004, 09:40:14 PM »
All the Nazi's were flatheads, you mean you didn't know that?!

Offline Overlag

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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2004, 09:53:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Urchin
All the Nazi's were flatheads, you mean you didn't know that?!


dont be racist :mad:
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Offline Glasses

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« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2004, 09:54:03 PM »
I hvae nothing to contribute other than I like cheese, please carry on :D

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2004, 10:22:01 PM »
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Originally posted by Overlag
dont be racist :mad:



LOL.....  OK... go look up racist in the dictionary.   No.. really.  Do it.

Offline Overlag

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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2004, 10:24:01 PM »
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Originally posted by Urchin
LOL.....  OK... go look up racist in the dictionary.   No.. really.  Do it.


calling someone a nazi should be a bannable offence.....

that guy is a german, NOT a nazi

oh and as you asked me to.........

Quote
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2004, 10:26:11 PM »
I am very pleasently surprised at Barbi's presentation. I give you a well done even though some of your points are debatable and will let ride, other than his reference point of the tip of the spinner. Pilot postion would be better.

I will remind him of a 'discussion' though, on rear view, in which I posted some drawings that I was told were 'garbage. There is a simularity between his and mine.:)

The Spitfire is not a Spitfire Mk XIV for sure. Several points will show this. One being the non-retractable tail wheel. Others are the panel lines for the engine cowling, the too long carb inlet and the wrong shape/size of rudder for a 'bubble top'.


Angus, did not the pilot of the Spitfire open his canopy raise his seat when landing? Several photos show this (eyes almost level with the top of the windshield)

...................

Overlag, Barbi is a Hungarian.:)

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2004, 10:37:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
calling someone a nazi should be a bannable offence.....

that guy is a german, NOT a nazi

oh and as you asked me to.........


OK.... maybe English isn't your first language.. so I'll spell it out for you.  


Is a "Nazi" a race?

Offline Overlag

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« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2004, 10:42:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
OK.... maybe English isn't your first language.. so I'll spell it out for you.  


Is a "Nazi" a race?


yes and no....but a german is a "race" and calling him a nazi just because hes german is...well nasty...
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Offline thrila

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« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2004, 10:49:12 PM »
Eh? would got called a nazi? thought nazi comment was just about the view height for 109 being high on the pic.
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2004, 12:36:34 AM »
Yea, it was... but for the ESOL folks i guess it is a little confusing.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2004, 04:34:39 AM »
If necessary, I think the pilot could crank the seat up. Never looked at it really.
Anyway, the cockpit is smallish, and a man of larger statue would be having his head against the top of the bubble.
That Spit....what model is it then? (too lazy to look it up)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2004, 06:00:58 AM »
Angus, as Karnak stated, a Mk XVI.

Opening the canopy was a safety concern as well, in case of a turnover allowing the pilot to escape, unlike the 109's pilot who would be trapped.