Author Topic: what would the world be like if  (Read 1838 times)

Offline Capt. Pork

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what would the world be like if
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2004, 11:04:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Only five??  Piece of cake!

Hell I can do just Bush and Hitler, the countries would be even easier.

Both are homo sapiens.
Both are caucasian.
Both are male.
Both have a full head of hair.
Both served in thier countries military.

If you want to be particular about the "country" thing, just take it up a level and stick, "Both countries had head of states that are...".

And that was just of the top of my head.  I think the question needs to be clarified more.


I meant the respective countries... So I'll start the list off:

Both had(and have) atmospheres of oxygen and nitrogen
Both were (and are) subject to the laws of gravity
Both enjoyed(and enjoy) blue skies on clear days

Although I think the creator of this sub-post was trying to promote the idea that Bush is a fascist. Personally, until the US Government decides to start euthenizing the mentally handicapped, I think Airhead's pretty safe.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2004, 01:19:49 AM »
The articlew by that jewish group and their resercher says that even in the 1930s ford had no control over his plants and that he gained no profit from them.

I am going to belive them.

You really must be naive to think that the nazis would just let ford do whaterver he wanted in their factiries during the war.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2004, 01:22:12 AM »
the Thirties, the management of Ford's German subsidiary felt so threatened by the hostility of the Third Reich that it consistently sought to ingratiate itself with the Nazi regime in order to keep the company viable. The importance of the government's good will for the Ford subsidiary's prosperity cannot be overstated; it became apparent as early as 1936, when Ford in Germany was denied certification as a national producer, a certification necessary if it was to be awarded government contracts for manufacturing. With such contracts steadily growing to constitute the vast majority of all sales in Germany, denial of certification was a grievous blow to the subsidiary. The subsidiary's management knew that the road to economic salvation meant submitting to government demands, even if that meant lying to or limiting contact with the Dearborn head office.

The company's managers at Cologne also feared for their own individual jobs -- feared that they would be replaced by political appointees. So Cologne's management attempted to assuage the Nazis' concerns about their and the company's loyalties in at least three ways. First, they introduced a racial criterion for the hiring of management staff. Foreign and Jewish members of the subsidiary's management board were removed, despite, interestingly, the strenuous opposition of Henry Ford. The first time that a Jewish manager was fired (in 1936), Ford himself was successfully able to reverse the decision. Subsequently, however (certainly by 1940), control of the subsidiary effectively shifted to Cologne, and Ford was unable to thwart further dismissals.

Second, the Nazi government, before the war, wanted to increase the import of raw materials that were in short supply. It also limited Ford's access to the raw materials it did have (generally, rubber). The company attempted to appease the Nazi regime and relieve its own shortages by importing as much scarce raw material as possible.

Finally, the Nazi government desperately needed foreign currency to fund the purchase of raw materials. Ford in Germany responded by attempting to maximize the export of its finished products -- negotiating with U.S. and U.K. Ford in order to secure profitable export markets. The company's German managers hoped that a favorable outcome for these ventures would mean that the German government would look upon their business more positively and that success would save their jobs.

All of these efforts failed to prevent the government from appointing executives at Ford in Germany who were more attuned and indebted to the Nazi Party than loyal to the company. A few members of management did retain their positions through the period spanning the Weimar Republic, the early Nazi period, and the war. But the power within the company clearly shifted from pre-Nazi or non-Nazi managers to government-sponsored managers, most pointedly Robert Schmidt, who was selected and appointed by the Nazi government. (Because, I believe, Fordwerke's senior management did not contest Schmidt's appointment, the company was officially allowed to remain under nominal American ownership.)

Who was in charge of Fordwerke when it used slave labor (it is now generally accepted that this occurred between 1941 and 1945)? By the time that slave labor was introduced, Fordwerke was clearly under the direct control of the Nazi government, though administered through the company headquarters in Cologne (albeit by Robert Schmidt). The meetings of the board of directors had already been suspended, and didn't resume until after the war. Although the American parent company desperately sought to retain control of their German assets, they failed to do so. Fordwerke became an instrument of the Nazi state. I certainly found no evidence that American management ever sanctioned the use of slave labor or that it even knew of the use of slave labor.


Ford had no control, end of story. They were under extreme durress by the nazis, who I'm sure we can agree are not the savory types when they want somerthing.

If he had no control there is no way he could be held accounbtable for what the factories produced.

Sorry dude, I know this must be crushing to your anti-corporate bias but the facts and commin sense logic  are obvious..

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2004, 01:26:37 AM »
BTW notice thae artickle seems to be sourced from the ADL, the Anti Defamation Legue a leading jewish rights organization in the usa and the world.

So frankly GS when it comes to the holocaust if they say ford was not so bad as you say then maybe I will belive them over you.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2004, 03:05:09 AM »
Hey if the Jewish anti Defamation League is OK with Ford's Company behavior during WW2 then who am I or who are you to argue them.

Don't you place any credence in the fcat that such a pro-jewish rights groups authors a paper that absolves ford of the accusations you are making?

I't seems that you dont. I really think much of your oppostion is due to stubborn and now baselkess anti-corportaism. I'm sorry you are not able to grow beyond that, even with faced with devestating counter evidence from a very ligitimate and significant source on holocaust and jewish rights/protection issues as the ADL.

Nonetheless I still like ya and I feel keeping good realtionship with you is more importat, even if yoiu are clearly wrong and stubborn. So now that i have gone so far as to show that even influenntial Jewish orgs are on fords side in this dispute, and yiu still wont accept it there really is nothing more I can write here in good faith about this issue while remaininig friendly or constructive. Good luck, and have a nice day today. :)

Offline Torque

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« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2004, 07:29:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
German engineering was always good (but not an order of magnitude beyond anyone else the vast majority of areas), but German science took a significant hit during the Nazi era. Not only did many “intellectual elites” (Jewish and otherwise) emigrate but science became bureaucratic and political. Look at the team that ran the Manhattan Project and imagine it working (Jewish members aside) in a Nazi controlled and led environment -- just don’t see it happening. They were loose, creative, politically diverse (which had it’s problems to be sure), opinionated, eccentric, risk takers … what’s needed for theoretical science. It’s been noted that areas like physics (which Germany commanded a pre-Nazi lead) were almost thought of in the same way as the “degenerate art” the regime worked so hard to repress after Hitler came to power. The allies were way ahead in areas like nuclear research, radar, computers and codebreaking. And in many cases, these allied advances were not even considered early on (at great military loss) because they were thought impossible or impractical by Nazi scientists.  Now, the Nazi’s might have been able to engineer a better atomic bomb -- if only they had thought one practical in the first place.

From an engineering standpoint the Nazi’s were marginally ahead with jet technology, well ahead with rocket technology (that was a decade away from having any real military application of merit for the work involved in developing it), somewhat behind in automotive technologies (IMO), well behind in industrial engineering and production engineering, ahead in some ancillary areas like optics… but not quite up to the mythology that has since developed. I’ll take the Manhattan Project alone over the sum of German technology during WW2.

Charon


Wha....? you call having a crude cruise missles like the V1 and ICBMs like the V2 not to forget swept wing jet fighters in prototype as early as '39 only marginal? Never mind the vastly superior ground equipment.

The Germans were decades ahead of the Allies.

Offline bpti

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« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2004, 08:59:35 AM »
read "The man in the high castle" by Philip K DIck. bit different, the Allies lose the war, but very interesting assumptions about the 60s under tha premises

Offline Charon

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« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2004, 04:38:13 PM »
Quote
Wha....? you call having a crude cruise missles like the V1 and ICBMs like the V2 not to forget swept wing jet fighters in prototype as early as '39 only marginal? Never mind the vastly superior ground equipment.

The Germans were decades ahead of the Allies.


Just saw the response.

You're right with the definition "crude" missile. Check out the Navy's radar homing BAT glide bomb for a comparison. Far more on focus for a modern day cruise missile. I don't really recall the pulsejet going very far after 1945 either. And the V2 was not an ICBM. It could put a 2000 pound warhead 300 miles down range with a point of impact somewhere within a dozen miles of a target. A great engineering achievement that laid the groundwork for the US and Soviet missile programs of the 1950s/60s, but also a colossal waste of effort from a war winning perspective. It was another 10 years before throw weight was sufficient and range sufficient (when added with smaller atomic bombs) and accuracy sufficient to make an actual ICBM that was a dominant weapon.

Swept wing jets? I give the Germans a good two-year advantage over the allies that diminished as more attention was paid to the technology. Even so, the P-80 would have been a better A2A fighter in all but diving performance. As to the LW 1946 stuff, I can foresee enough resource being available to quickly catch up if the need arose.

Better ground equipment? Mainly by nature of policy. The Sherman existed as an infantry support tank that suffered because of a misguided consideration of the needs of armored warfare (Patton actually played a role in this). But, it was mechanically reliable with excellent mobility unlike the later generation German tanks. The reliability did improve, but the Tiger series lacked the offensive characteristics that made the earlier blitzkrieg so successful. Not to mention the Elephant, etc. Of course these are policy issues as well. That’s why I see this as a fairly even area with greater allied (US) reliability/general mobility; better optics and better cannon on the German side; stabilization systems and power operated turrets on the allied side… really a battle of policy decisions and priorities both good and bad on each side.

Would I rather be in a Sherman 76 compared to a Tiger or Panther (probably the best tank developed during the war) -- no. Would I rather be in a Pershing, Comet or Centurion -- not so much to choose from there. The T-34 series wasn't so bad either. What about the human engineering that went into the soldiers kit? The Garand rifle -- good enough for a decade or so (and more if you count the M-14) even after the MP-44 was developed. MG-42, best LMG of the war, but not seen as a need for US tactical combat doctrine. The 2.5 ton truck? The jeep? The Hellcat tank destroyer?

What do you think would have happened if the allies had put the $20 billion 1940s dollars and 10,000 people (including many of the top scientists and engineers) from the Manhattan project into rocket or jet research? Even with the Manhattan project hogging scientific resources there was time for centimetric radar and codebreaking.

[edit: The Germans spent $2 billion 1943 dollars on the V-2 program, which was equal in GNP to the $20 Billion the US spent on the Manhattan project. Had we seen the need for a V-2 we would have had one, maybe spending an extra billion or two as needed to catch up.]

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v2.htm

Charon
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 04:49:47 PM by Charon »

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2004, 05:04:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ??
Wha....? you call having a crude cruise missles like the V1 and ICBMs like the V2 not to forget swept wing jet fighters in prototype as early as '39 only marginal? Never mind the vastly superior ground equipment.

The Germans were decades ahead of the Allies.


You're right, 'marginal' was the wrong word. Ineffectual would have been better, as would have impractical, foolish, vain, superficial, wasteful, or childish.

German novelty weapons, however cool, were developed and deplyed with a useless mindset. V-1s and V-2s had no effect other than the demoralization of the British populace(if you can call it that, because it probably did more to solidify their will to beat their enemy than anything else). Calling the V-1 a 'cruise-missile' is laughable. It went in a straight line and fell to the earth after a set number of miles travelled. It wasn't even the first expression of that concept. Engineers experimented with a gyro-stabilized flying bomb back in WWI. It was powered by a piston engine and could carry a medium-sized bomb aloft. Cruise missile? Fine. It wasn't winning any wars. Same for the V-2. What good is an ICBM when all it can take to its target is a bomb that could be carried, along with several others, in a low-tech bomber? These machines were toys, prototypes, that were years from practicality.

As for their jets. Well, all I have to say is that while pretty and sleek and fast and whatever, they made no difference. Again, a machine concieved and implemented more as an expression of vanity than purpose. You say the Allies were decades behind, why then didn't the Germans have fighters capable of the p-51s endurance? Where was there A-bomb when it may have made a difference? In reality, they were only ahead in very narrow elements of their technology and only because some members of their leadership were too shortsighted to develope more practical, less spectacular machines that could have won the war, rather than impressive concepts that made no difference whatsoever in the long run.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 05:07:01 PM by Capt. Pork »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2004, 05:10:55 PM »
Just to be clear, that's Torque's quote. I should have put the proper atribution when I quoted it in mine. Wouldn't want anybody to be confused :)

Charon

Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2004, 05:11:12 PM »
Quote
As for their jets. Well, all I have to say is that while pretty and sleek and fast and whatever, they made no difference. Again, a machine concieved and implemented more as an expression of vanity than purpose.


lol.. oh sorry.  
The ONLY reason the 262 wasn't effective at changing the outcome of the war is because it was too late.  Had the Germans had more time, and had Hitler used them as fighters.. woah

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2004, 05:20:54 PM »
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
lol.. oh sorry.  
The ONLY reason the 262 wasn't effective at changing the outcome of the war is because it was too late.  Had the Germans had more time, and had Hitler used them as fighters.. woah


Correction. Too late, too few, too short-ranged, too labor-intensive to build and maintain. Technology means also having the infrasctructure to support said technology. Making enough 262s to stop 1000 bomber raids would have depleted the German industrial reserves even quicker, and there still would have been ten p-51s for every 262.

Like I said, they would have been better off building something like a 4-engined bomber, or maybe a cheap, easily producable, high-quality tank like the t-34.

It's good that they followed the doctrine that they did, however. Not only did it lose the war for them, but it contributed to what today is perhaps the best Automotive tradition in the world.

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2004, 05:39:39 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
The V1 was a cruise missile by definition.

It would have been practically impossible for the Allies to close the gap in rocketry technology. Even as the V2s were falling on London the British scientists said it was impossible. The Germans developed the liquid fuel technology that was essential to make ballistic missiles practical. The development of liquid rocket fuel is universally heralded as the greatest leap in rocket technology ever.

The Germans were in the final stages of developing the "New York" rocket when the war ended.

Why didn't the Germans produce a fighter with the endurance of the P-51? They didn't need a fighter with the endurance of the P-51. They did have several projects, but they all got cancelled because Germany needed interceptors more.

Germany was only months away from developing a working A-bomb. Some believe they had a working A-bomb in the final days of WWII.

Germany developed the first intercontinental bomber, the Ju390. Capable of carrying 22 000 pounds of ordinance to the east coast of the United States. Only two were made before the project was cancelled and resources reallocated to "emergency fighter program". One of the Ju390s served with the KG200 special-ops unit and made a recon flight to New York, some say to test the feasibility of dropping an A-bomb.

Germany fielded the first guided air-to-ground missiles and bombs. Germany was testing guided surface-to-air missiles and air-to-air missiles late in the war.

Germany fielded the first jet fighter, jet bomber, and rocket interceptor. Not until the F-86 and Mig-15 did anyone develop a fighter that outperformed the Me-262.



Again, my point is that all these 'developments' were all but irrelevant given the type of war being fought. Having one or two or even a hundred of some prototypical super machine(other than the a-bomb) would have made no difference against the onslaught. Testing something towards the end of the war has no bearing on the war's outcome. What's more impressive--building 2 superbombers with a 22,000lb load and flying one once or several hundred more conventional b-29s, not just capable of dropping the bomb, but actually doing it with great effect. The American Colonies were 'testing' submersibles during the revolution--who cares? They weren't filling the seas with them and it would be a long time before anythnig like a useable, reproduceable model would reach the battle.

Your defense of the v-1 as a cruise missile, while it may be valid, is absurd when taken in context with modern cruise missiles. Tomahawks that today may make a serious difference in warfare are as removed from their WWI and WWII predecessors as the Minie ball is from modern Flechette ammunition.

Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2004, 05:54:04 PM »
Quote
It's good that they followed the doctrine that they did, however. Not only did it lose the war for them, but it contributed to what today is perhaps the best Automotive tradition in the world.


While I disagree with most of what you said, this is awesome !!!

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2004, 05:59:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Calling a P-51 a fighter is also absurd compared to modern fighters. The Germans were far ahead of anyone else in most scientific fields. That they didn't mass produce the Ju390 because the war had shifted in favour of the Allies doesn't negate the achievement. That they could only make 1400 Me-262's and pilot them with rookies because they already had lost the war does not negate the achievement.

You're arguing that the Germans weren't technologically ahead of the Allies because they failed or were unable to take advantage of the technologies due to other aspects of the war. Your argument is fallacy.


Um, I never said they weren't ahead. Don't put words in my mouth. I said their technological edge was ineffectual, given the circumstances of the war.