Author Topic: Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?  (Read 1792 times)

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27251
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2004, 06:00:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
The US has been blatently turning on the propaganda machine against Venezuala since Bush took power.  

 


Ah, there it is...was just a matter of time before we came down to what the post is really about...

Offline Martlet

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4390
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2004, 06:03:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Im a neutral observer..not an explainer.


That's odd.  You didn't sound very neutral

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2004, 06:12:58 PM »
Quote
Well it isn't in an retail oil/petrol trade magazine that's entirely funded by advertising from the oil & petroleum industry (stop me if I'm wrong). Furthermore the Citgo article has the stench of a advert deal and an editorial initiated by sales…


Stop, you're wrong. NPN has been editorially independent since we spoke out against Standard Oil in 1909. Advertising is not linked to editorial. Now, Citgo does advertise, as do a lot of companies (though few oil companies actually), but you don't stay in business for 95 years by running advertorials.

What is surprising, is your take on the article’s slant. I’ll just put it down to your ignorance of the oil industry and the magazine and its readership. Considering the integration of Citgo and PdVSA pointing out the political instabilities hardly serves Citgo, but it does serve our readers who own chains of gas stations and wholesale operations and decide if they want to brand Citgo, or Mobil or whatever. Citgo did a great job dealing with the loss in Venezuelan production during the strike, which, given their supply dynamics (50 percent crude from Venezuela) was an accomplishment worthy of reporting.  Equally worth reporting (but hardly favorable), was the continued political unrest and potential supply disruptions and even the potential sale of Citgo to Nigerian or Malaysian oil concerns.

Quote
I see Citgo is a wholly owned subsidiary of Petroleos de Venezuela S.A., the company whose entire board was sacked by Chavez in January 2002 and then mostly reinstated a couple of weeks later, a move that angered it's executives. No sour grapes there, then.


LOL, not by me or by Citgo’s top executive at the time. I asked Oswaldo Contreras, Citgo’s CEO, just how stable things were with the PdVSA/Citgo/Chavez relationship (largely related to debt and funding issues, as well as political). He assured me all was well -- seemed very positive -- a good counterpoint (on message of course) to the other stuff I would be pointing out. Not a bad guy for an ex Venezuelan General, very affable and casual. Two weeks later and he’s sacked, which required quite the rewrite past deadline. I bet there are some sour grapes now, but then he wasn’t really one of those Western capitalist types to begin with. Chavez appointed him CEO in 2000, though apparently he was more Ali Rodriguez’s guy (see below).
 
Quote
According to Petroleumworld.com, a Web site focused on the Venezuelan and Latin American oil industry, this is just another page in a recent fight for control of the company between Chavez and his Fifth Republic Movement, or MVR party, PdVSA president Ali Rodriguez a senior member of the Nation For All, or PPT party and the Venezuelan military. Although PPT is a leftist party that has been aligned with MVR since 1999, it is also a competitive party that is increasingly seen as being more opponent than ally, according to local analysts.


Your link is hardly unbiased.

Quote
It is clear that the configuration of the liberal democratic state is not capable of achieving sustainable environmental and economic outcomes. At the core of this incapacity is the contraction in political participation, and the limiting of discursive dialogue, accorded to citizens and non-citizens by the institutions of the western nation-state. It is therefore appropriate that groups such as FEASTA - dedicated to a solution-based approach - initiate, and complement existing, debate and reflection on constructing alternative democratic models.

 
The assumption that Chavez bartering oil with Castro for Panama hats will somehow convince the Saudi’s to barter oil with Switzerland for fine chocolates or switch to euros even, is a bit of a stretch now. Though if things did get nasty politically to the point where it was worth a wold-wide financial crisis to put the US in its place you just might see it (the euros that is).

As it stands in today’s world (not the Star Trek one we would all like to see, myself included) the problem with reverting to a backwater national oil company is that Venezuela already has a number of challenges without Chavez. The crude is heavy and sour, requiring a special refining infrastructure to process economically. Citgo has that, along with a solid marketing infrastructure in the USA, but there’s been talk of his selling Citgo as part of his regional initiatives. Citgo and PdVSA were also set to expand throughout Latin America, and now that’s been halted (a bit counter even to what is suggested in your link). From the US perspective, all oil supplies are important these days, but the 13 percent crude the USA receive from Venezuela could be adjusted even further downward (it was 19% in 1997) given a little time.

Of course the Bush administration would like to see him removed (for self-serving oil related reasons), but frankly so does anyone with anything going on in Venezuela. Chavez promises bribes to the unemployed (who are also getting a bit tired of not seeing all that manna fall from heave after a decade), while the radicals tend to be just about anyone with a job -- not just senior management. I’m not a big fan of the Bush administration’s international policy and acknowledge our history of banana dictatorships and neocolonialism in the region. But supporting a Chavez “democracy” is stretching things quite a bit.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 11:28:17 PM by Charon »

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2004, 06:20:30 PM »
If any of the nonsense about Chaves being evil had any grounds at all it would be all over the press instantaneosly.
Instead we get the same negative slant pap that propaganda machines churn out as a matter of policy.
The very first actions of the US sponsored "goverment" that tried to over throw chavez was to disband the parliment and rip up the constitution.
And Ripsnort. If anything I was saying was true would you blame anyone other then Bush? Do you think anyone else sets the aggenda of the state department?

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2004, 06:24:42 PM »
"Of course the Bush administration would like to see him removed (for self-serving oil related reasons), but frankly so does anyone with anything going on in Venezuela."

Honest statment. Far better then deniying what is going on and for whos benifit. But the 80% of the population whose lives might be made a little better by a more fair distribution of the oil revenues do not see it that way and the only way to keep it as controled as Bush and co want it is to remove thier ability to select thier own leaders.
So back to my original question for which I have been soundly roasted.
Why is democracy bad for Venezuela?
Cause its bad for big oil..
Correct?

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2004, 06:31:43 PM »
Please demonstrate that
1.  Bush or the US caused any of this (coup attempts, strike, referendum).
2.  The referendum is anti-Democratic.
Otherwise have an AFDB and a tall frosty mug of STFU.
BAD TROLL!
BAD TROLL!
Thx, drive thru.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 06:39:16 PM by FUNKED1 »

Offline weaselsan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1147
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2004, 06:44:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, yes, yes...Eviiiiiiiiiiil Ameerika! Deth to Boosh!~


OH OH...Wait a minute. The last time I was there I distinctly remember seeing some weapons of mass destruction. Oil you say...???

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2004, 07:00:28 PM »
FIGHT BIG OIL...BURN YOUR CARS , YOUR TRUCKS ...YOUR SUVS....RIDE THE BUS.....DOWN WITH BIG OIL

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2004, 07:22:52 PM »
What press Pongo?  North American?  European?  Neither regions presses gives a flying **** about South America because thier audiences don't give a flying **** about South America.

Offline crowMAW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1179
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2004, 07:42:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
[cut and paste, but I did write it to begin with :)]


Good read.  Now we know how come yous can writes so good. ;)

I agree that Chavez is not good for Venezuela.  Nationalistic dictators usually aren't good for any country.  

Yet, I don't believe that it should be the place of the US to expend its resources to remove a government so as to supplant it with one of our own design.  We have a terrible track record of picking the wrong person to be the replacement "leader" (right up through today and our selection of Ahmed Chalabi).  When the people of Venezuela have had enough, they will instill the change that they desire...as in Haiti now.

BTW Charon, I recall pulling a few articles from NPN  for a legislative member I was working with a couple of years ago.  He hadn't heard of the practice of zone pricing before.  I can't recall the author, but your name sounds familiar.

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2004, 07:42:52 PM »
Pongo, there's a big difference between wanting someone out of office and being the driving force behind the revolts.

One is common sense, they other is conspiracy theory and quite laughable.

Reason does not equate to cause.  You've yet to hint at anything that says otherwise.  It's time to stop calling everyone else ignorant and show that you're not.

MiniD

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2004, 07:46:44 PM »
Well I guess the difference is between not caring and saying nothing. and not carring and saying what the State Department wants you to say.

Wow Ripsnort. I find it hard to believe you got upset enough about this to send me a boot record virus.  Hope your   boys learn how to treat people with other ideas then you from dear old dad.

If you find the simple truth about your goverments actions so troubleing that you would behave in that way. Imagine what men will do for practically limitless wealth at the expense of other men.

Never the less we now have a popularly elected dictator in Venezuala and a non elected champion of democracy in America.
The "dictator" has improved the freedoms of his coutry men 10 fold. The other diminished the freedoms of his countrymen 10 fold.

You worship one and revile the other.
I think we should leave it to the people of Venezuala to decide who should lead them and the US should just take their little recall campaign to Washington DC.
Oh ya. No federal recall law is there..

The thread though called a troll by some is not entirly useless. the mindless drones of the neocons have been told what to think so at least we comunicated their hating orders..

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2004, 07:51:39 PM »
What is it you were saying about mindlessness and propoganda again pongo?

MiniD

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2004, 07:55:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Please demonstrate that
1.  Bush or the US caused any of this (coup attempts, strike, referendum).
2.  The referendum is anti-Democratic.
Otherwise have an AFDB and a tall frosty mug of STFU.
BAD TROLL!
BAD TROLL!
Thx, drive thru.


What proof would you accept Funked.? You accept the word of the state deparment fed press without proofs.  
What proofs exists are redely available to any one that wants to type
"chavez coup" into google.

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27251
Why is democrocy a bad idea for Venezuela?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2004, 08:15:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo


Wow Ripsnort. I find it hard to believe you got upset enough about this to send me a boot record virus.  Hope your   boys learn how to treat people with other ideas then you from dear old dad.

 


Ahhh, excuse me? I don't even have your email address.  And before you make claims like that, best get your facts straight, son.