Here's why there's a USS Ronald Reagan

[miko2d]

Boroda: What does nationality have to do with quality of production?

 When that nationality are jews, a lot. Do you think that 50% of jews in soviet sceince or ~30% of jews in american science and business would have been replaced by others without any effect on the effectiveness? Hardly.
 Besides genetic differences, soviet jews differed from russians more than american jews differ from americans.
 Jews would have been running 50% of soviet economy if there was not a quote system and party preference towards "proletariat"to which jews never belonged.

In Stalin's times we had high percentage of Jews in "top management", maybe you'll say that's why Stalin's socialism was so effective? I bet it's wrong.

 Socialism cannot possibly be effective - as jewish economist Ludwig von Mises conclusively proved in 1920. The jewish communist bolshevik criminals were extremely effective villains and oppressors. Which must have contributed significantly to the anti-semitism among russian people.

In times of "stagnation" Jews worked im warmer places then factory directors, like foreign trade. Miko, I studied in a school where I was almost a proletarian kid, a son of a colonel, doctor of science, and all that rich golden kids were Jewish.

 Yes, we all know a few jews that occupied a high post and were paraded around. In my college grade there were 20 jews out of 150 but 8 out of 10 top students.
 At the same time radio-electronic college that was related to military was closed to jews totally - they accepted a token 1 or 2 from some politically-connected family.
 If you do not use half your country's brain power, how far will you advance?
 How many of the russian 8 oligarchs are jews, by the way? All of them?
 
Again you repeat strange myths of "Soviet state antisemitism", that did actually more harm to Jews themselves.

 Not only was it real. It was also largely justified after 1950s. It actually had nothing to do with nationality.

 Jews were not loyal. Jews did not believe the communist propaganda. Jews were aware of truth outside the Soviet Union. All that for very simple reasons, besides natural intelligence and skepticism, that is. After the iron curtain was lifted and ill-fated settlement of israel by soviet communist jews, the jews in Soviet Union were in posession and in communication of relatives in the hostile capitalist world. They were also aware of the conditions there and of the falcity of the soviet propaganda in describing terrible living conditions of the western workers and impending proletarian revolution in the west.

 Of course communists were right not trusting them and with 3/4 of soviet industry related to the military production, there were few places a jew could go.
 
Miko, your ideas are sometimes funny. You try to show that Soviets were not-rational according to Western standards.

 Soviets were not rational because socialism is not rational. Forget western standards. Those are not rational either because they are almost as socialist as the soviet were - at least where politics is concerned.

The problem is that they were rational according to our domestic conditions. It's hard to understand, but it's true.

 Exactly. The restriction on jews were totally rational, as I've explained.

 You should read mises booklet "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" or even the whole treatise "Socialism" to see how irrational and chaotic any rational planning must necessarily be.

 I did not much understand what was happening to USSR and why but now I have a chance to observe the collapse of a society into socialism all over again. Lucky me.

 miko

[BUG_EAF322]

russia played a dirty game in wo2

- how about the occupation of poland
-attacks on finland
-pact with germany
-pact with japan
-the russian army raping woman and children in germany
-occupation of much more eastblock freedom loving countrys
-deportation of polish and germans before and after the war

i'm glad i never lived under a communist regiem and where freed by the allied.

Russia played an important role however but very limited to it's own country and interests the allied however had to fight all over the world

oh and the coldwar plan was just nuke the netherlands  so the allies cant resuply via rotterdam.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
russia played a dirty game in wo2

We played it to the end and finished in Berlin. Our cause was right, the enemy was crushed. That's all.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322

- how about the occupation of poland

We had to leave it all to nazis and have them several hundreed kilometers closer in 1941.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322

-attacks on finland

Same thing. We had to leave the border 32km from Leningrad so nazis could easily capture our Northern capital in the first week of the war.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-pact with germany

Oh, we should have declared war on them, so UK and France could watch Russians die for what they promised to Poland and never bothered to follow the promises.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-pact with japan

Sure, we had to attack Japan immediately on Dec. 7th 1941! Nazis 20km from Moscow was only a minor problem so we should have fought Japan to please Uncle Sam.

And remember: it was Soviet Army who defeated Japanese ground troops in 1945.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-the russian army raping woman and children in germany

...and eating them after raping.

Foxtrot uniform charlie kilo. After what Germans did to our country they could expect more problems after we came to visit them.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-occupation of much more eastblock freedom loving countrys

go back to the top of this thread and see what I wrote. We must have left them to NATO agressors so they could drop atomic bombs on our cities easier.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-deportation of polish and germans before and after the war

Germans were "deported" because in almost German colony we had local Germans shooting Soviet troops in the back.

Deported doesn't mean "sent to death camps". Compare it to sad fate of Japanese Americans.

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322

i'm glad i never lived under a communist regiem and where freed by the allied.

Russia played an important role however but very limited to it's own country and interests the allied however had to fight all over the world

oh and the coldwar plan was just nuke the netherlands  so the allies cant resuply via rotterdam.

Don't join agressors - and you'll not have problems. If you could throw NATO troops away from your land - noone will spend expencive ammunition on you.

You are so glad you "never lived under a communist regiem" because you know nothing about it and are just repeating agressor's propaganda now. Turn on your brain and get real.

Who told you you'll get nuked? "Friends" from overseas? Maybe to justify presence of their agressive armed forces? Your microscopic country was (and in fact - still remains) a pawn on their "global chessboard". (Sorry, no offences please, but Moscow region alone is several times bigger then Netherlands). They already "protected" you from nazis in 1940, do you remember? If you have such friends - you don't need enemies.

Now, seriously, do you really believe Americans were "protecting" you out of charity? 99% of Americans, including their president, are unable to show Netherlands on the map. For them war is business, for us - a tragedy. Look at the uncovered cynisim of boasting that they have cut you off from Soviet natural gas!

Propaganda is a bad substitute for common sence.

[Spooky]

So, the whole pipeline system was run on a alpha version of Windows 95 !

how about a  USS Bill Gates ? he could fund it himself...

[hawker238]

[BUG_EAF322]

Yep the allied forces where here in holland also and ready to die for it.
And yes those plans existed
Yes the netherlands is small but our harbour is the biggest in the whole world

logistics is pretty important.

Again the nazi didn't spare the russians if they did and threated em better, many of them would walkover to germany.

communism is a biatch and facism also, not much choice for a russian soldier.

in the ardennes lotsa americans where just simply murdered by nazi's
it wasn't a reason to do same to germans

something a more civilized country would do

i won't mention kathyn it's still a mystery who did it
prob germans.

cmon boroda are u saying comunism is a good thing?

democracy ain't perfect but is way better than that.

maybe it was forbidden to get ur own mind but now u should really.

[Coolridr]

Gentleman,

       I think the issues being dicussed are now moot...whoever was right or wrong or good or evil doesn't matter..of course propaganda on both sides would portray the other as evil. Look at how it is now, Russians are no longer evil to us, now Arabs and fundamentalist muslims are. You can't hold the entire population of the USA responsible for the decisions of a few elected officials who try to claim to represent the people when actually have their own agendas. That is why the senate and house need to be required to vote based on referendums from their districts. AS a member of the US Navy I am often frustrated with having to go to "hot-spots" to enforce our policy, when I don't always belive we should be there.We all on BOTH sides have been taught our history according to what our governments have wanted us to believe, and no matter what source you use there is never a fair and impartial view of the events that occured. Everyone has their own opinion on what has happened. The thing to do now is for everyone to move forward with the cards that are now on the table. The real issue right now is where and who is buying the beer, cause we shuld put the past in the past and all have a nice drink together.

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Boroda
Specifically...?

 

Dowding, maybe we'd better talk about the colonies of British Empire? How you slaughtered thousands of Hindus etc? Or maybe about what Americans did to the Indians? Looks like they'll prefer Evil Communists to Brave Fighters for Freedom and Democracy.

 [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't forget what the Romans did to the Christians...And what the Homo-Sapiens did to the Neaderthals.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
You simply didn't have enough bombs, and from Western occupation zones your bombers couldn't reach industrial regions East of Volga.

In Oct 1947 the USA Nuclear weapons arsenal stood 56 Atomic bombs, 35 specially equiped B-29's, and 30 crews.  56 Hiroshimas would have been a hell of a lot of damage for the USSR to absorb, even if the range didn't get to the Urals.

But the plans existed and your governments admit it.
In the archives of the US Military there are plans for everything imaginable.  Someone in the government has probably made plans for attacking Mars.

And in surface warfare "allies" didn's have a single chance. Our tanks could drive through Europe and sink you in Atlantic in a matter of weeks. Remember what two German tank divisions have tone to you in Ardennes? You had to beg for Stalin's assistance, and saving your miserable forces costed another half-million Soviet lives in Balaton operation...
If the USA wanted to be the agressor were Soviet tanks NBC cabable in 1947?   A Fat Man dropped on massed tanks may have slowed the armor column's advance
 

My point is that the western alliance had a monopoly on the nuclear advantage and did not use it as an agressor would have.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Coolridr
Gentleman,

       I think the issues being dicussed are now moot...whoever was right or wrong or good or evil doesn't matter..of course propaganda on both sides would portray the other as evil. Look at how it is now, Russians are no longer evil to us, now Arabs and fundamentalist muslims are. You can't hold the entire population of the USA responsible for the decisions of a few elected officials who try to claim to represent the people when actually have their own agendas. That is why the senate and house need to be required to vote based on referendums from their districts. AS a member of the US Navy I am often frustrated with having to go to "hot-spots" to enforce our policy, when I don't always belive we should be there.We all on BOTH sides have been taught our history according to what our governments have wanted us to believe, and no matter what source you use there is never a fair and impartial view of the events that occured. Everyone has their own opinion on what has happened. The thing to do now is for everyone to move forward with the cards that are now on the table. The real issue right now is where and who is buying the beer, cause we shuld put the past in the past and all have a nice drink together.

Thank you, I agree completely.

Here in Moscow I'll buy beer, vodka or whatever for any AH or WB pilot I was amazed by a hospitality of American people when I was in the US in 89, and I feel obliged. We are different, but at the same time we have many things common. At least both of our nations spread through our continents from one ocean to another

"KogdA panY derUtsya - u kholOpov chubY treschAt". When landlords are at war - peasants have forelocks cracking.

I only want to say that I am afraid, and, as every Russian - have all possible reasons to be afraid of threat from the West. We looked at Americans as at friends since late-80s till 1999 when NATO raped Yugoslavia, and now, when you look closer, NATO is a bigger threat then it was in late-80s After accepting fascist Baltic states NATO moves too close to our land to avoid attention.

JFYI: since early-90s our official military doctrine includes such an unbelievable thing as a "preventive nuclear strike"... With our new generation of "Kremlin dreamers" I can only say that someone is teasing a bear

[Coolridr]

I was amazed by a hospitality of American people when I was in the US in 89, and I feel obliged.

   We Americans since getting past the fear of the cold war have really taken to the Russians. I have met many and you are a great people. One of the best times I've had was in 1996 when my first ship USS SPRUANCE DD-963 (Lead ship in it's class of destroyers) made a port call in Ekenforde, Germany with the "Nastoychivvy" a Sovremny Class destroyer. Me and a few of my friends ran into some Russian Sailors in a bar and spent the whole night drinking together. None of us understood each others language, but we still managed to communicate and have a great time. I even traded a Zippo with the ship's name and crest on it for one of your sailor's hats (although I feel bad because by the look on the face of the Officer of the deck onboard his ship I'm sure he got in trouble for it).

only want to say that I am afraid, and, as every Russian - have all possible reasons to be afraid of threat from the West. We looked at Americans as at friends since late-80s till 1999 when NATO raped Yugoslavia, and now, when you look closer, NATO is a bigger threat then it was in late-80s  After accepting fascist Baltic states NATO moves too close to our land to avoid attention.  

As far as I know our only concern is that both countries still have a vast nuclear arsenal. We are no longer oppsed to your country on a military level. I feel that alot of the countries that have joined NATO in recent years have done so because they don't know who to fear, and leaving the "eastern block" was no picnic for any of them and they just wanted an insurance policy.  As far as Yugoslavia goes..The US opposed a break up of that country from the start to avoid the kinda problems that came from it. However Croatia(which is a great place) and some of the other countries got away all on their own without our help. NATO stepped in when the whole Bosnia thing happened when that prettythang in Serbia was prosecuting civilians based on their ethnic and religious beliefs and then later with Kosovo. All those areas had historically been their own countries so you can't blame them for wanting to leave a state created after world war one. However that is just my view and from what I've read so once again it's just an opinion based on what I know. We look at NATO as a way to spread out commitment to more than just us. I don't think there really is a need for it anymore.

Feel free to contact me sometime..I like talking to people from waaay over there. email is David_weeks@cox.net

Thanks for agreeing with me

[Ike 2K#]

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