Author Topic: Ever wonder on how to pull that nice reverse?? (Read 4920 times)

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #30 on:** June 09, 2004, 01:27:14 AM »

I'm not blasting you Etch, but I am with Urchin here, I welcome the higher bogey most times, knowing I can force an overshoot or most times getting them on the defensive (read that you are defensive visually setting them up) I can quickly gain the offensive in a scissors or rolling scissors.

WldThing is actually in the offensive, He has looked 2 or 3 steps ahead and knows where the enemy is going to come up into his guns solution. It just looks like he is or might be in a defensive posture.

That's my take anyway.

edited: I would suggest for all sim flyers to tweak their scissoring skills to the best they can, it's easy to fly fast, attack fast and zoom on. It's totally different world to go from 1 end of the flight envelope( fast) to the other end(slow) and still know how to control the particular plane you are flying.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #31 on:** June 09, 2004, 02:25:05 AM »

Urchin is right. I welcome someone higher and faster on my long six. This is how I prefer to set up fights, even moreso than merging nose-to-nose. Sure, you should lose in such a situation, but isn't that the fun of it? If you lose... so what? He had energy and altitude. On the other hand, if you win... you earned it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #32 on:** June 09, 2004, 08:13:54 AM »

One thought though, just ocurred to me. I was thinking maybe with the viewing of this post on Reversals, alot of people are starting to anticipate this move/reversal and cut throttle. Either that or you aren't breaking at the right time jetb123. Timing is everything and with the new enemy icon/counter in AH2 you going to have to visualy guess when to break on plane shape and not by the counter.

Still is fun though, as Leviathn put it.

MaddogJoe · « **Reply #33 on:** June 09, 2004, 04:01:08 PM »

The move Wldthg does int he film depends on a good closure rate. Making a turn to get your angle, then timing the move to get your guns as he over shoots.

If on the other hand as Etch says you have some one closeing at a slower rate...controlling the closure...then the move will be very difficult to pull off. Wldtng I'm sure would still get off a great shot, but for us average jocks it won't work.

So Jet, watch the closure, if its pretty strong, cut to one side or the other in a tightening turn, and as they get to 500 or so break the other way in a barrel roll, and light him up as he over shoots:)

TweetyBird · « **Reply #34 on:** June 09, 2004, 05:31:11 PM »

>>Urchin is right. I welcome someone higher and faster on my long six<<

What I'm talking about is the pilot who was high, faster on your long 6 (a small adavantage) controlling closure till he his only slightly faster and on your close 6 (a large advantage) I dont believe for a second I can do this on any regular basis, but thats what I'm trying to get better at. I figure if I wind up in a scissors, I screwed up earlier either by allowing someone close on my six or by not wasting the plane that was 200 yards in front of me.

And I also understand the point of the fun aspect of the game. It would be boring to fly safe in MA. And I do try to get better a flying the scissors, but if I'm the one that starts it, I know I screwed up and am now hoping the other guy will screw up.
Everything I've read about it calls it a last ditch effort to survive. I just don't get overly concerned if it doesn't work - it shouldn't work if the other plane is flown well.

Edit: also, I thought about this after writing that other post. A lot of times, a high plane will make a half hearted 600 mph pass at a lower slower plane. If I'm the lower slower plane, I usually just try to side step them. I guess WT is going the extra mile and killing them

My aim is too pitiful for that

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #35 on:** June 09, 2004, 05:48:33 PM »

I understand where ya coming from Etch, really.

but in reading what you typed:

Quote

I figure if I wind up in a scissors, I screwed up earlier either by allowing someone close on my six or by not wasting the plane that was 200 yards in front of me.

and this:

Quote

And I do try to get better a flying the scissors, but if I'm the one that starts it, I know I screwed up and am now hoping the other guy will screw up.

Try changing your scope of thinking first: Don't believe everything you read per word go beyond basic's here. I always and probably never will stop with the attitude that I can beat anything I come up against, I am positive in my mind that I am going to be the victor in every incounter ( that means 1 vs 1 or 2 on me) I don't even rattle much if I hear a ping or 2 and don't freak about it, this thought with constant practice makes me fly better. I am not saying I am any better than the next guy here, but in my mind in a dogfight I am confident I can beat the opponent wether I do or don't. If I don't I take it as a grain of salt ( with a learning experience built in ) and try again.

Man do I wish I could of stayed in my 20's playing online sims, I miss them good fights and love the memories when I ponder on them.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #36 on:** June 09, 2004, 06:01:34 PM »

>>WldThing is actually in the offensive, He has looked 2 or 3 steps ahead and knows where the enemy is going to come up into his guns solution. It just looks like he is or might be in a defensive posture. <<

I'm mostly refering to an earlier film WT posted where he had like 6 planes zoomiing his spit V. Its the same move, but a different film. In that film he's defensive in every sense of the word. Had one of those pilots parked 200 yards off his 6, his game was up - at least it looks like to me. Still its an amazing film, but I doubt even he believes that position is a recipe for success.

Edit: I've bumped up the thread with the film I'm talking about.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #37 on:** June 09, 2004, 06:58:35 PM »

>> I don't even rattle much if I hear a ping or 2 and don't freak about it, this thought with constant practice makes me fly better. I am not saying I am any better than the next guy here, but in my mind in a dogfight I am confident I can beat the opponent wether I do or don't.<<

That aint no lie TC, I've studied your films also. They need to call you Timex. You take a licking and kill them

And yours is in a plane thats a lot harder to maneuver - f4u. I like the call the other night- "I'm leaking oil, half my left wing and a stbilizer. Ill be landing 48"

TIMEX!

And I do try to stay mentaly in a fight till the end. The stuff I'm saying here is more of things I think about when deciding what to practice. I look at all the different reasons that can lead up to a scissors. Its like a big funnel that meets at the end in a scissors. Some reasons have only to do with fun - everyone is flying 30k, outnumbered etc. Others are blatant pilot errors. If I have 1/2 hour to fly and I wind up in a scissors at the nearest furball, it's different than if I've alted for 15 minutes and wound up in a scissors in a 1 vs 1 fight.

In the 1 vs 1 fight, I might actually mentaly lose it, because I'd be thinking I've been scoping the situation for 15 minutes and have wound up fighting to pull lag pursuit. The furball wouldn't bother me as its pretty much expected to wind up defensive.

I appreciate the help and hope the posts didn't seem arrogant or "know-it-all." Heck, eveyone knows I'm newbie

Edit: I guess what I'm not saying clearly, is I think its a screwup if one winds up in a scissors unexpectedly. Luring a plane into a scissors where you would have the upperhand, is something else.
I guess its a calculated risk, because you have to give the other plane a shot opportunity to get into a scissors, or you have to miss a shot opportunity. Its like when it first starts you look in the up view and say" if he aint there I am in so much trouble." Well with WT's move when he looks in that upside view, if the plane aint there, I think he's in deep doodoo.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #38 on:** June 10, 2004, 11:22:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by TC
>>WldThing is actually in the offensive, He has looked 2 or 3 steps ahead and knows where the enemy is going to come up into his guns solution. It just looks like he is or might be in a defensive posture. <<

Etch Wrote:

Quote

I'm mostly refering to an earlier film WT posted where he had like 6 planes zoomiing his spit V. Its the same move, but a different film. In that film he's defensive in every sense of the word. Had one of those pilots parked 200 yards off his 6, his game was up - at least it looks like to me. Still its an amazing film, but I doubt even he believes that position is a recipe for success.

WldThing wrote:

Quote

The trick is to make them think your vulnerable, then turning the tides.

I should have said he is in the offensive
"mentally" by being 2 to 3 steps ahead of where he currently is, did I say that right? He is making his self look defensive but is actually baiting them.

I would assume (uhoh messing up again by assuming) WldThing knows that this will not work solidly 10 out 10 times everytime. especially if he starts to be bounced by more than 2 planes at the same time. I tryed looking for the other film #137 but only have seen the film labeled WldThing.ahf

if you could send me the other film by email ( if it is different from the one where he is being bounced by some other Damned! )

I am with you though that if an opponent used throttle control and parked on his "6" 200 or 400 back that he stood a good chance of going down.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #39 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:43:44 PM »

I sent it to you TC.

You'll se that the plane that does eventually smoke him, parks on his six. Its a 51 and wt wiggles out of it, but it was nothing like the stuff before with everyone overshooting.

SLO · « **Reply #40 on:** June 10, 2004, 09:07:20 PM »

If some1 leads nose down when you attack from his 6....you pull nose level...wing over and let em do his fancy flying....and kill his prettythang

rule #1......when on top of enme plane....STAY ON TOP u dumbprettythang

reversals will kill you cause your dumb and you gave up your advantage....

now if you don't have time to pull level on top of him and you got to go thru with attack.....If he turns nose down to right.....turn left DUMBprettythang....make a big loop(UP) and come straight down on that fancy flyer.....

nice film thing

WldThing · « **Reply #41 on:** June 12, 2004, 09:30:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SLO
If some1 leads nose down when you attack from his 6....you pull nose level...wing over and let em do his fancy flying....and kill his prettythang

rule #1......when on top of enme plane....STAY ON TOP u dumbprettythang

WT Rule:

Even an experienced pilot will get Kill Hungry, especially if he knows who he is fighting..

WldThing · « **Reply #42 on:** June 12, 2004, 09:35:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I am with you though that if an opponent used throttle control and parked on his "6" 200 or 400 back that he stood a good chance of going down.

Well you have to figure, knowing what to do in different situations makes a good pilot. I wouldnt pull of a same reversal if the opponent was 400 of my 6. Now granted, it can be very difficult to shake a very experienced player off your 6 at that yardage, but if you know what your doing everything is possible..

Plus do you really ever want to put yourself in that spot where the con is 200-400 off your 6? Be agressive from the start..

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #43 on:** June 12, 2004, 10:51:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by WldThing
Well you have to figure, knowing what to do in different situations makes a good pilot. I wouldnt pull of a same reversal if the opponent was 400 of my 6. Now granted, it can be very difficult to shake a very experienced player off your 6 at that yardage, but if you know what your doing everything is possible..

Plus do you really ever want to put yourself in that spot where the con is 200-400 off your 6? Be agressive from the start..

WT, I wouldn't think you would pull same reversal, and I figured you wouldn't let an oponent get that close with out doing something to throw him off, regardless of what experience he may have.

And no, I think no one would ever want to jeopardize their 6 with a close range like that, I said you stood a good chance IF it happened, of going down...I didn;t say you would........

Hornet · « **Reply #44 on:** June 12, 2004, 11:29:44 AM »

the key jetb is to continue to track your enemy's e-state during closure. You'll see some guys get cagey about an overshoot and start throt control...some are so conscious of it you'll actually see them slipping the plane on their attack.

Since e-state dicates advantage this is your cue to abandon the setup for some sort of displacement roll and immediately go offensive for angles.

anything that's forcing a high-closure shot around your 3/9 line is good news they won't have the juice to try and get back on top anymore.