Author Topic: Spanish Election  (Read 1485 times)

Offline pwnorris

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Spanish Election
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2004, 01:26:56 PM »
Quote
If anything, going into Iraq helped mass the crazy-wanna-be AQ fighters in a nice tight group where we could find them all in one location.  The U.S. presence in the middle east is like throwing **** on a fly pile.  Excellent tactic to not only to draw all the nut cases away from our shores and put them all in one area to eliminate methodically, but clean up Iraq and its harbored terrorist camps in the north and let the other rogue countries know that "A neighborhood Block watch is now in effect"


Amen Ripsnort:aok

As one Marine Sergeant Major said, "It's a perfect war.  They want to die, and we want to kill them."

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2004, 01:28:05 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html


CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.


Daniel what do you think about this info?

Offline stiehl

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« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2004, 01:36:24 PM »
I would think that they would pick a country that has more of an impact on the occupation in terms of troops.

BY THE NUMBERS Troops in Iraq
 
Which countries have provided military support

United States 120,000  

Britain 11,000

Albania 70

Australia 1,000

Azerbaijan 150

Bulgaria 470

Czech Rep. 92

Denmark 496

Dominican Rep. 300

El Salvador 360

Estonia 55

Georgia 70

Honduras 370

Hungary 300

Italy 3,000

Japan 250 (750 on the way)

Kazakhstan 25

Latvia 120

Lithuania 105

Macedonia 28

Moldova 25

Mongolia 180

Netherlands 1,100

New Zealand 60

Nicaragua 230

Norway 150

Philippines 95 (175 on the way)

Poland 2,400

Portugal 130

Romania 400

Singapore 200

Slovakia 69 (120 on the way)

South Korea 675 (3,000 on the way)

Spain 1,300

Thailand 443 (30 on the way)

Ukraine 2,000

Sources: Reuters news reports/GlobalSecurity.org.
 
 


Maybe we should unleash the Golden Horde. I'm sure they remember what happened last time...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2004, 01:39:52 PM by stiehl »

Offline pwnorris

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« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2004, 01:39:12 PM »
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Originally posted by stiehl
Maybe we should unleash the Golden Horde. I'm sure they remembere what happened last time...


Stiehl, what's the "Golden Horde"?  :confused:

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2004, 02:09:07 PM »
Barbarians.

Quote
9/11 was a much better recruitment tool for AQ than Iraq was. Besides, we were already "hated" by any fanatical religious muslim groups.

You don't have numbers showing increased AQ membership, but I can give you sources that AQ membership declined thanks to our U.S. forces.

Are you implying that they need more of a reason to hate us? And Iraq was it? again...


They don't need more of a reason to hate us, but those who wouldn't normally have supported Islamic fundamentalism do. Now Al Aqueda can effectively mimic Michael Palin and say "Come and look at the violence inherent in the system!" It's another stick to beat the US with and a great advertising poster.

"Look at the Imperialist Crusaders invading Muslim land! See how they enslave our people!" Ad nauseum.

Sept. 11th was a bad day for Al Queda in terms of recruitment. The whole world was suddenly behind the US and most supported the action in Afghanistan. You even had rogue states like Pakistan coming on side. Only idiots and the wholly fanatical danced in the streets. Anyone with an ounce of compassion felt that it was an atrocity.

The US and her poodle-like allies pissed all that away with the Iraq invasion, squandering an unprecedented support base in the process. Time will tell how much of a miscalculation it was.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2004, 02:11:28 PM by Dowding »
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Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2004, 02:12:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html
.snip.
Daniel what do you think about this info?


My views haven't changed a bit. The decision to withdraw the troops if elected was made long before the bombings and the change of government was caused more by the handling of the crisis than by the crisis itself.
"It can only be ETA" as a motto became old rather fast and the fact that it became known that, if possible, the gov wanted us to think that it was ETA until after the election flicked the switch.

Please bear in mind that 90% of the population didn't want our troops to be there in the first place.

Daniel

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2004, 02:55:29 PM »
I fear Al Qaeda will view this as victory, regardless of the finer points brought up by people. And I fear it will encourage more attacks.

I find it very easy to picture an Al Qaeda guy in Europe saying to his friends, look it worked in spain, lets do it here too.

Do you think AlQaeda will view spain bombings as validation of their tactics?

Offline pwnorris

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« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2004, 03:03:59 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Do you think AlQaeda will view spain bombings as validation of their tactics?


I agree with you.  

People talk about the US news organizations having filtered out certain data and viewing things with a certain perspective.  I agree.  But I also think that Al Qaeda does the same thing.  It's not just how Europe and the US view the election in Spain, it's how Al Qaeda views the election is Spain.

The results may have had nothing to do with the bombing, but what does Al Qaeda think?

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2004, 03:37:34 PM »
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Originally posted by CyranoAH


Please bear in mind that 90% of the population didn't want our troops to be there in the first place.



Very good point cyrano. I believe the vote was simply what the majority of the Spanish people felt was in the best interest of Spain. Please keep in mind the American people do the same thing when we hold elections in this country. We'll most of the time. The Democrats choices are not generally in our best interest.

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2004, 03:40:00 PM »
Now that everything is getting colder, I'm finding myself more prone to look at the "big picture"

First, I am in agreement with those who think that the outcome of spanish elections is a very, very dangerous precedent, and an amazing finding for terrorists all over the world. Whatever the moral grounds of socialist victory are, which I will discuss further on, the fact is that by terror bombing, a nation changed its vote. Dangerous message in dangerous times.

Withdrawal of our troops is, plain and simple, a mistake. A huge one and the last bit of the victory that the whole act for the terrorirsts was seeking and that is, ultimately, going to achieve.

Al-Qaeda has shown, yet again, that they are a bunch of soulless criminals, who have the guts to make whatever they deem positive for their cause. And, the sooner we realize it, the better, they are a very clever bunch of reptiles.

The timing of the bombings was absolutely perfect, not too soon, not too late, and I'm tempted to admit that they counted in advance with the fierce political use that certain sector of the spanish press (namely grupo Prisa) and certain political spectrum (In which I include Socialist Party, in an absolutely shaming way) did of the bombings. They could count also with the absolutely horrendous comunication skills of the now defeated Popular Party. From my point of view, they succeeded at changing the outcome of the elections, thus they won this battle. And this, which is only my opinion, makes the death of 201 innocents even more painful for me.

The outcome of the election is pure consequence of an emotional vote cleverly manipulated by leftists in our country for months, fueled by press of the kin. And, don't be so naive, given the right choice of time, deaths, press, and manipulation, this can happen to any nation.

It was absolutely vomitive to see how Socialists cried "alltogether now, this is not a political issue" at the very first moments of the blasts, when the most plausible hypothesis was ETA, to turn immediately when the Ministry of Interior said a van was found with arab tapes, and then call "liar, liar" to the government. Jeez, that was not a lie, but the most likely hypothesis with the information ANY spaniard had at that time. Or Rubalcaba (one notable Socialist member of the most corrupt government Spain has seen in democracy) intervention to say "Spain does not deserve a liar government". Shameful. Not so vomitive as some french media (Liberation, if my memory suits me well) stance on the defeated Popular Party, though.

Socialists' political program gives me the impression of a lot of promises never to see the light of the government. I was made under the assumption that they would never win. It was an "opposition" program. They even consider 145 seats to be a "wonderful" result, and their jumping platform for the next poll, in 4 years time. So our president-to-be promise to withdraw our troops has to be analized from that perspective. Now that he won, he needs to stick to his word as close as possible, especially at this very early stages. And preferably with such a sensitive and manipulated issue as Irak war.

About the "willing" of the government to make the people "think" it was ETA, sorry, but I don't buy it. It is the main artifact published by Socialist press in the immediate moments following the van finding. And they succeeded, too. How in the world can anyone with more than one functional brain cell expect that the government could hide any bit of substantial information for any amount of time? No, thanks, I don't believe it.

And the behaviour of Ministry of Interior shows that, whatever their willing was, they did not lie, and they did not hide or delay any findings. Of course, we, in Spain, are used to throw accusations without the need of the proof.

Well....I guess it's how it used to be for ages in my country. Leftists usually have a very hard time accepting defeat. They had them in 1.934, where they tried to overcome a legitimate Right wing victory by means of a Coup-d'etat (something not so frequently told, bot not less the truth), they did when they abandoned power in 1.996, where all kind of bad-style declarations were made, and they repeated now again, with spontaneous (and that's the sad part...it's on their nature, I guess) demonstrations in front of Popular Party headquarters the day before the voting....yep...very democratic. Of course, now they will say it was "the people"...yep...like they did in 1.930, 1.934 and 1.936. They are always "the people".

But such is democracy's greatness. The People has talked, and Mr. Zapatero will be my president in a couple of weeks. The poll was legal and valid, so I accept the results. And, on a positive reading, I think it's good to have a government change. It's only that this is not the right way to do it, in my humble opinion.

Of course, I'm counting that some of my fellow spaniards will come here to call me "fascist"...no big deal, it's been the usual place for the last 2 years. Anyone who cares to defend the ex-government in issues like Prestige spill or Irak war was automatically a fascist, no matter what their reasons could be, which, on the other hand, never were allowed to be heard.

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2004, 03:41:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CyranoAH

Please bear in mind that 90% of the population didn't want our troops to be there in the first place.


Why they didn't vote Socialist in the Council and Autonomous Governments elections, then?

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2004, 03:44:43 PM »
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Originally posted by weaselsan
I believe the vote was simply what the majority of the Spanish people felt was in the best interest of Spain.


Voting in Spain in March 14th was anything but a rational decision. You simply can't think right when there are 200 citizens in graves and more than 1.500 in hospitals.

Press didn't help to calm things down, either.

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2004, 04:30:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pepe
Why they didn't vote Socialist in the Council and Autonomous Governments elections, then?


In the council elections the socialist party obtained more votes than the popular party. Just saying...

And in catalonia... well, catalonia has always voted socialist so no contest there.

Daniel

PD: Que noo que no nos vamos a poner de acuerdo Pepe :) Si me he equivocado votando a ZP (el tiempo lo dirá) seré el primero en admitirlo, no se me caen los anillos.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2004, 05:54:38 PM »
if the terrorists are so bent at getting ur troops out of Iraq and it is pretty certain they did the bombing, wouldn't that make the average guy in spain want to sent more troops to iraq not pull the ones there out. i mean wouldn't the bombs change the ppl minds to want to kick their arses more not less?

I think a subway bomb or two in the states will make the israeli activity in the gaza strip look like childs play compared to what the average joe demands in the name of revenge
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Offline GODO

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« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2004, 05:58:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pepe
...certain sector of the spanish press (namely grupo Prisa) and certain political spectrum (In which I include Socialist Party, in an absolutely shaming way) did of the bombings. They could count also with the absolutely horrendous comunication skills of the now defeated Popular Party...

...The outcome of the election is pure consequence of an emotional vote cleverly manipulated by leftists in our country for months, fueled by press of the kin. And, don't be so naive, given the right choice of time, deaths, press, and manipulation, this can happen to any nation. ...

It was absolutely vomitive to see how Socialists cried "alltogether now, this is not a political issue"


That is the very true and very sad story. 2 weeks before elections, Popular Party was winning by a wide marging. The scandalous manipulation of the bombing information made by some media and press group (direclty controled by the socialist party), as pointed by Pepe, made the difference. Very sad days for Spain, after the bombing we are rewarded with a group of amateurs without political/social/economical credible programs, mainly because they never considered, even remotely, the possibility of winning the elections in Spain.