WTG Israel

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by GScholz
Many Americans would like to forget their less than honourable past, especially now in this new age of "American high-morals". Many American Indians are still struggling against the United States of America, to get some of the injustices recognised and compensated for.

Heh, heh GScholz.  You're forgetting one thing.  The Americans you're talking about were to a large extent fairly new to this country.  The values they learned at their parents knees were brought to our fair land almost exclusively from northern European emigrants.

In looking back at our brief history, I agree, we haved like a bunch of rapacious northern Europeans, and guess what, we were.  

curly

[Torque]

If Israel was genuine about the Peace talks then why during the first few years of the Intifada did they engage and specifically target all the moderates in the PLO organization for termination?.

You would think any chance of a successful negotiations would require moderates from both sides. Hamas back then enjoyed little support but clearly it was responsible for the majority of attacks on Isreal at that time, yet not one Hamas leader was a target.

Now Hamas has the majority support and here we are today.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by GScholz
You fought a war to become independent from the Europeans, primarily the United Kingdom. When that war was won you ceased to be British subjects and became Americans. Would the Indians have been slaughtered under the English as well? Who knows. One thing is a historical fact however ... the British abolished slavery in 1833. It took America more than 30 years and a civil war to follow their example.

You may want to blame everything on the Europeans and that your values were European as well. The fact of the matter is that you still mostly have European values, religion and language. You can't blame Mom and Pop Europe for your crimes. They are your crimes, no one else are to blame.

this is rich....a european calling Americans out for their "otrocities" over their brief 200+ years.  Didnt your viking relatives rape pillage and plunder.  Didnt the spaniards, who controled MOST of northwest, central, and south America, kill MILLIONS.  I'm not saying American hands are clean, I'm saying Europeans are one to talk.  Europe started colonizing the world LOOOONG befor America even existed.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by GScholz
Europeans have plenty of blood on their hands. However we don't need your atrocities on our hands as well ... like I said we got plenty. People like NUKE and Curly here that seem to want to blame Europeans for your behaviour makes me think you're much like the Germans who want to forget what monsters they were. You would have to go a thousand years back to find Viking atrocities, and on top of that we're not Vikings anymore. You barely have to look a hundred years back to find American atrocities against it's own population, and you're still living in much the same America with the same government. WWI ace Eddie Rickenbacker was born the same year as your army slaughtered 200-250 Indians including women and children at Wounded Knee Creek. Franklin D. Roosevelt was eight years old. We're not talking ancient history here.

What difference does it make how long ago it was. A hundered years or a thousand, no one is responsible for the crimes of their ancestors. Of course we'd be foolish to ignore history.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by GScholz
It's not as much a question of time as it is a question of government and the identity of the people. If the Nazi's were still in power in Germany I would still hold Germany responsible for the deaths of six million Jews.

I got news for ya, the Germans didn't voluntarily disband the Nazi party. They had a lot of external, uh, influence. How does that weigh into your equation?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by GScholz
Nor did your government ever disband.

There are people in every society, yes, even yours, that commit crimes or atrocities. Sometimes they go unpunished. Blame a society or government for what some did long ago if you want, I couldn't care much less.

[Nilsen]

this thread took an unexpected turn

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by GScholz
You fought a war to become independent from the Europeans, primarily the United Kingdom. When that war was won you ceased to be British subjects and became Americans. Would the Indians have been slaughtered under the English as well? Who knows. One thing is a historical fact however ... the British abolished slavery in 1833. It took America more than 30 years and a civil war to follow their example.

You may want to blame everything on the Europeans and that your values were European as well. The fact of the matter is that you still mostly have European values, religion and language. You can't blame Mom and Pop Europe for your crimes. They are your crimes, no one else are to blame.

GScholz, I didn't blame Europeans for current US policies.

I simply pointed out that we are a nation of immigrants, or from the native american pov, a nation of invaders.  Our values and behavior (especially during the time you have cited) was a reflection of current European values.

Our nation was formed for many of the same reasons the Israeli nation was formed: Freedom from religious persecution and from arbitrary (orders from the crown) actions.

Israel and the US were *announced* by acts of political violence.  The US became a nation by surviving the war of independence.  Israel became a nation by defeating the entire Arab world (the Arabs were assisted by the Brits) in 1948.

Concerning native populations, by chance does Norway/Finland have a minority population that hasn't fared well over the past 100 years?  

curly

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Nilsen10
this thread took an unexpected turn

Pretty predictable, if you ask me... It started on a debate of a controversial topic involving the latest events in the Arab-Israeli conflict and has now, after 260+ posts, grown to cover all related and not-so-related subjects. Happens every time.

Here're some predictions for the future of this thread.

300 posts-- Women's roles are investigated, not just in this crisis, but in all acts of oppression between ancient Egypt and today.

350-- Public Education in the US is brougt into question

400-- Colonization of the moon is brought up

425-- women's roles in the colonization of the moon

453-- Somebody with the letters LAW in front of his name makes an adament yet questionable proclaimation about Stevie Ray Vaughn--then spends at least 5 posts defending his military service record.

475-- Public education on the moon is the topic of speculation

500-- A poll is taken about who believes there's a god, prompting Saurdauker to renew his request to purchase unwanted souls.

515-- Somebody with a 2003 M3 challanges some guy, living on the other side of the atlantic, to drag race his WRX.

530-- Lazs gets a new gun, and we see pics

540-- F-15 is declared the most effective tool of war since the sharpened stick. A couple guys from Scandinavia stick up for the Su-37, prompting me to post some pics and perhaps a link to some neato aerobatics.

550-- PETA is trolled

555--Gay marriage is addressed, briefly. Everyone, save for MT and perhaps two others, agree that California is gay in every sense of the word.

560-600-- A bunch of guys call a bunch of others Nazis, again.

589-- Ripsnort hits his 15,000 post milestone with a scathing remark concerning where certain liberals can stick this year's tax refunds.

601--Thread locked.

[AKIron]

lol Cap'n Pork

[Nilsen]

lol Pork...i dont doubt that for a second

I must point out 530 and 601 as my favs on your list for things that is guaranteed to happen.

[Nilsen]

GS...

The joikas up north may not agree 100% with you but they were not killed

[Nilsen]

Think about it GS, some of us eat joikas for dinner and that is pretty awful imo

Better get to bed, good night all.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by GScholz
You are not any better or more pure than anyone else. Your hands are as dirty or even dirtier than that of many other people around the world.





I wouldn't presume to talk for the Finns, but no ... Norway does not have a minority population that hasn't "fared well" over the past 100 years ... with the notable exception of the Jews when we were occupied by the Germans in WWII.

Never said or implied we were more pure than anyone else. Disagree about the dirtier part though. How many jews were displaced or murdered more recently there in Norway than the Native Americans you're going on about?



BTW, though my grandfather's sister denied it, my grandfather's mother looked to be full Native American in the only picture my Father had of her.

[Maverick]

Someone mentioned the number of palistinian children killed in this situation with Isreal. Part of the reason might be found in this article of a young palistinian suicide bomber that was caught and the bomb removed from him. Pathetic actually that those who sent him out used a child in this manner, especially a mentally challenged child.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_young_bomber

These folks must be REAL brave to use a child for this....