Exodus?

[lazs]

st said... "That's a "what if" scenario. Taken a bit more to the extreme, what if the Germans had
                       developed a fighter like the MiG 15? Or what if you took the American engines and put into the
                       190s?

                       One way of limiting in scope (and therefore making more possible to implement) a WWII sim is
                       to 'stick to the facts*. If you don't, it ain't a WWII sim. It's a pseudo WWII sim."

even you must see the absurdity of that.   the MA is about making for the most variety without making things too lopsided.   How would adding a mig to the mix do any good.   As for "fantasy... well... I would bet that more allies got into dogfites with other allied planes than ever seen an axis plane.  sure... they never fired at each other but they did it.   We get to not only find out how these planes would do against each other but instead of saying "ratta tat tat" we get to shoot big chunks off said planes.   Immersive?   How is dogfiting in LW planes anything like WWII air combat, especially with no finger fours at low alts?   How is a sky full of D9's realistic?  The more "immersive" you make it the more boring it will be.  there is no "sticking to the facts (at least historicaly) in any HA I have ever seen... No, the "facts", for me, are faithfull FM's, accurate gunnery and well modeled damage.   I can supply the imagination.   Look at the "exodus" the LW guys are leaving and the bombers are leaving.   the former because they are boxed into a corner of their own making and the latter because they have tied themselves to an unrealistic, concession ridden and antagonistic (to the other players) set of ac.
lazs

[hazed-]

I have read most of this thread and i agree totally with Stsanta about the 'illusion' you try to create when playing these games.Hes totally correct when he says that as the game becomes more and more 'quake' like i lose more and more interest.A completely clear indication of this is when your country is down to 2 bases and your tactical and strategic options are reduced to 1! ,defend against attakers.This is a condensed version of a 'furball MA'.It may take longer but you will eventually get pissed off/bored with it.
The more options available to you, (eg shall i jabo ?,take a long bomber run? fighter sweep?) you can do what you feel like on the day.So i say put even more depth in, not dumb realistic engine starts!   but expand the map with bridges and rivers etc,radar changes,strategic targets with greater affect, make us use our brains to win.Im not saying take out the chance to furball because i love those too, same as hangtime, its the aplication of ACM and the learning of them that makes it fun.What i dont want 'personally' is a simplistic WW2 checkers game where one country takes a peice of the other over and over.You can see that giving players the chance to do something other than bombing a base works , LOOK how many HQ raids are flown!.Well lets give the big bombers more targets that really give an obvious affect rather than just knowing it has slowed the respawn   (its a dit dull isnt it).

Well I do like the german planes and do you know what? i like the Empire in starwars!. Dasterdly and mutley in the wacky racers! LAZ analyse that mate and as usual 3x3 = 130 therefore im a nazi maskwearing dog beater right? Laz and AKdeja I put it to YOU that you are the ones that need to take things less seriously.Im here to play a WW2 game with more in it than just dogfighting over and over.I want to be able to drive tanks,fly off ships,join in with everyone in big attacks,raids and landings etc.When i ask for changes i am thinking of the game as a whole becomeing more enjoyable not just trying to get the best plane for the LW so i can charge around all day winning.Sure it would be great to be able to take a superior plane like the me262 up but like i said before its what you feel like on the day.Perhaps you'll want to bomb the crap out of something who knows?
Its about personal taste.I just dont see in AH what i see the books about the war and as a result the immersion or illusion is lost.

'One way of limiting in scope (and therefore making more possible to implement) a WWII sim is
to 'stick to the facts*. If you don't, it ain't a WWII sim. It's a pseudo WWII sim."'

I agree with this laz.purely because if it goes into the realms of fantasy the game loses its whole focus on WW2.

quoteing your post Laz:
even you must see the absurdity of that. the MA is about making for the most variety without making things too lopsided. How would adding a mig to the mix do any good. As for "fantasy... well... I would bet that more allies got into dogfites with other allied planes than ever seen an axis plane. sure... they never fired at each other but they did it. We get to not only find out how these planes would do against each other but instead of saying "ratta tat tat" we get to shoot big chunks off said planes. Immersive? How is dogfiting in LW planes anything like WWII air combat, especially with no finger fours at low alts? How is a sky full of D9's realistic? The more "immersive" you make it the more boring it will be. there is no "sticking to the facts (at least historicaly) in any HA I have ever seen... No, the "facts", for me, are faithfull FM's, accurate gunnery and well modeled damage. I can supply the imagination. Look at the "exodus" the LW guys are leaving and the bombers are leaving. the former because they are boxed into a corner of their own making and the latter because they have tied themselves to an unrealistic, concession ridden and antagonistic (to the other players) set of ac.
lazs'

you missed the point stsanta was trying to make laz.We dont want the exact numbers just the exact tools but without the fussy 'over the top' sim stuff.same as you we all enjoy the fighting but some ,myself incuded prefer things to 'look right'.I flew a whole bunch of ju88s on a hq raid and what attacked us? spitfires at one point which was fantasic.and you say more imersive is boring? PAH!. ok 1 spit never dived into a pack of ju88s without a care for his life and in real life things would be done different but so what? it looked and felt better than when a russian or japanese plane does the same thing.
Im all for trying a HA or a pacific arena  and european theatre arena.This doesnt mean i want it to be flown like the real thing with everyone diving away at the slightest hint of danger.
its the 'ILLUSION' of doing what they did with fun thrown in ok?
If we suggest more historically correct matchups youre at our throats but in the same breath you say you want accurate fms,realistic gunnery and damage effects.Well how is this different? you want the illusion that your flying in a realistic aircraft with realistic guns,well others and i would like to add realistic targets and enemy to that list.

THATS 3 things you want and 2 things we want ! lol you still win  

------------------
Hazed
9./JG54

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 06-02-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Hazed, I in no way criticize someone's choice of aircraft be it Axis or Allied.

The point lazs made that I agree with is that most ardent supporters of their aircraft type are the same that are critical of what everyone else is flying.  As if there is some need to ensure that not only is that pilot doing what he feels is imersive.. but everyone else must too.

Other than that.. I said nothing that merits "take the game less seriously".  You're simply sounding defensive now.

AKDejaVu

[hazed-]

defensive? you live in a dream world.maybe i shouldnt have put you in the same sentance as laz  

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 06-02-2001).]

[SeaWulfe]

This degenerated into a "fight my way" or "I'm better because..."

Curiously, it's the LW that's doing the bickering about how hard it is to fly their aircraft (hard... I guess that's a word you can use interchangebly with different these days... I find them fairly easy planes to fly) and then trying to enforce your viewpoint and opinion onto everyone else.

It doesn't change from game to game, the only thing that changes is speed of the song... the tune and melody stay the same.
-SW

[pokie]

Originally posted by 1776:
Well, here's my $.02.

What's that in Canadian?  

Well I know Nuttz had a terrain called COFFEE that look impressive and was large enough for the MA.

Pokie

[kfsone]

There are two camps present here.

Camp 1: Want to participate in an aerial score-fight of WWII type aircraft.

Camp 2: Want to try and re-create the experience of being Douglas Bader or Guenther Landt.

Camp 1 is excitement via thrill a minute, explosions, gunfire, dogfights; bombers to shoot down, targets to blow up, boats to sink; constant adrenaline.

Camp 2 is excitement via the intensity of a 'realistic' WWII style engagement, hard flying; strategic maneuvers that may mean non-action; bombers and other vehicles to 'repulse' and defend against, boats as mobile strategic sources. Never knowing when the adrenaline rush will be needed.

You may not like the next paragraph. Grit your teeth and bear with me...

Camp 2 accuses Camp 1 of being 'dishonourable' or being 'dweebs'. They aren't. They're having fun, they're playing a game. If OffMap is wrong, it shouldn't be possible. Car bombing may be unrealistic, but where's it said you can't do it. Throwing your plane at the enemy CV, TBM or Lanc may be 'dweebish', but isn't the object of the GAME to blow up things in the sky, sea and land?

Camp 1 see Camp 2 as perpetual whiners, for the reasons stated above. But this is a WWII "Sim", it's supposed to simulate air, sea and ground combat as experienced by WWII pilots (and drivers). They're looking to pit their flying and strategic-thinking skills against other human beings. Rammings, car-bombings, offmappings are all 'unrealistic' and defeat the purpose of their involvement in this 'simulation'...

Thing is...

I think most of us enjoy Camp 1, even though I would claim to be of Camp 2. At the same time, with the right environment, I think MANY of the #1ers would actually enjoy spending time in a Camp 2 arena...

It happened with the HA in WB2 until the arena was toned down. The first week or so was intense, and well popoulated.

[StSanta]

Curiously, it's the LW that's doing the bickering about how hard it is to fly their aircraft (hard... I guess that's a word you can use interchangebly with different these days... I find them fairly easy planes to fly) and then trying to enforce your viewpoint and opinion onto everyone else.

Seawulfe, I hope you reread this thread. You'll see that I have said nothing like that. it started off with lazs saying that LW fighters are boring and can only be flown in very limited ways. I say the opposite is true. I find LW fighters pretty easy to fly and fight in; then again, I find the zeke to be so ridiculously easy to fight in it's almost not fun. The Spit is even easier.

It is rare for me to come across a Spit or N1K that fights intelligently. Usually they go for the HO and then for turns, even against an A6M. When I DO meet a Spit pilot with a brain, I know I'm in trouble.

This whole thing started when i tried to explain why my squad has lost so many member. lazs instantly started attacking my points and put words in my mouth. Perhaps this is a new strategy from people now that most of the "LW only LW is superior" crowd post very little.

The MA is a big "all planes vs all planes" arena. And if you look at it, what separates it from a CK or Unreal Tournament team game, it's the planes and the fm. One could call it "Capture the flag".

For some, like lazs, this is fine. For others, like the squaddies of mine who have left, it is not exactly what is wanted, but it is with wwii planes with a very well modelled FM. Hence my comment about HTC finding a niche with the new competition coming out; Target Korea and WWIIOL will focus more on the historic aspect, whereas AH will be more of a capture the flag sort of thing.

Unless of course HTC move it to another course, something that is hard since AH is doing it the way it's always been done, much like WB II and soon WBIII.

Just a matter of preferences.

------------------

[SC-GreyBeard]

Greets all, been some time since I posted here.

Some of you might remember me, some of you know me, and it seems there are a fair number of names here I don't know.

Just read all the previous posts, and for the most part, everyone has a good point to a degree of some sort.

There is a place for the mindless furballers, and there is a place for the stretegic types.

and oddly enuff I think, I think that both can and will co-exist in AH.

The main reason I left had to do strictly with cash flow. Medical bills pile up much to fast.

But at the same time, the game had become quite stagnant to me. (some call it major burnout).

IMNSHO, the current strat model is ok, but a bit to limited. Think it was dingy that noted that there needs to be MORE strat stuff. Bridges, roads, trains, that kind of stuff.

My primary enjoyment was originally the B-17. I enjoyed the long flights, trying to keep my eyes jumping all over the place to keep them pesky "bad guys" from sneaking up on my lone bomber.

But it gets boring after a while, just as I found furballing mindlessly gets boring too, especially when too many good sticks are out and about. (I'll never even qualify as a decent ACM stick, much less a good one).
Even though on very rare occassions I showed the momentary flash of some modicum of skill.

Because of the three sided nature of the current setup, there will always be the one side or another getting creamed. Thats just the nature of the three sided beast.

I know the fact that rankles some is the same plane fighting same plane thing. Well in a three sided conflict how else would you do it?

So that in it's self is not really an issue is it?

I think the main thing that would help AH, would be to strengthen the role of the strat. side of the game. Continue with the increase of the various plane types, but with the strat playing, being a less determining factor, you'll seldom see the mass bombers, and true fighter sweeps against raiders, (be they airborne or GV's, or Naval).

Use the strat. side to actually show some sort of major effect rather than just some minor 2 hour annoyance factor.

Who knows, some day I may be actually able to afford to come back.

SC-GreyBeard

 

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 06-04-2001).]

[danish]

Santa:
"lazs instantly started attacking my points and put words in my mouth"

JFYI lazs used this tactics for as long as I can remember on the AGW.Sometimes with, sometimes without a point.No big deal really - just dont let him get under your skin :=)And of course he is not the only one.

danish

[lazs1]

well... it seems to me that those who want an "historical" arena only want a very small slice of history.   They want to fly the lopsided nature that was WWII they want uber planes in every phase.   They don't want to fly finger fours or at 25K or whatever.  I don't think you could make it realistic enough that I would be immersed so I would just as soon have a good challenge like our everything vs everything arena.   Why settle for the boredom, lack of parity and variety that is Axis vs Allied?  

Mindless furball?   Strat is mindless in this game.  Most of the "good" strat pilots get their bellybutton handed to em by the mindless furballers.  Most of the guys in my squad are mindless furballers... What is more mindless than limiting each side to only a few planes?  Seems to me that all the historical set wants is an edge and... they want their planes to have a chance in the arena and be used a lot more but...

truth is their planes are boring and when PAC planes are added to the mix their planes are not competitive.   That's the way it was and that's the way it works out in the MA.   I do not want to face hordes of boring planes that all do the exact same moves every time you meet em.  I don't want to be in or face that days uber ride.   Had enough of that in WB.
lazs

[SeaWulfe]

If I were referring to your limpwristed leatherwearing lispwaffe dumb bellybutton Santa, I would of quoted you and made direct references to your inability to wear normal clothes and the lisp that I constantly hear eminating from your mouth whenever you try to use the letter "s"....
-SW
:-)

[sling322]

The way I see it, the MA is always gonna be what it is....a place for folks to fly however they want in whatever they want.  If you want historical match-ups then show up for the special events and weekly stuff that the CM's host.  The MA is not the place for historical match-ups.

[hblair]

lazs(1?), you jumped all over SW/Mr.T/Seawulfe for changing his handle a few weeks ago. Who do you think you're kidding here? Are you trying to be Mr. Cool? Is the the "1" you added to your handle supposed to imply that you are the #1 pile-it here?? Do you not think we know who you are?

Puhleeze!


(I know you lost your profile in the crash, just friendly ribbing )

[Nifty]

Uhmm, I don't know about everyone else, but I enjoy flying the historic scenarios because of the Allied vs Axis part.  I don't really care which side my squad flies for, nor which plane I end up flying (because honestly, I'll die in whatever you put me in pretty damned fast!)  All I want in an event (or a HA if one ever comes about, which I don't think should until AH has a larger active subscriber base) is to fly in the same plane as my squaddies and go against historical enemies.  That's what I get out of the scenarios, and I'm very thankful for them.  However, they only happen for a few hours on the weekends.  Plus, sometimes the event itself doesn't interest me that much.  A historical arena would hopefully give that same feeling I get from the scenarios, i.e. knowing if I'm up in an Allied plane, I'll be fighting Axis iron, and vice versa if I'm in an Axis craft.

I would assume that the people wanting a historical arena want the same thing.  I don't think the majority of them want a rolling planeset because their particular AC would be "uber" at some point.  I could be wrong, as I really don't know what everyone else thinks.  I guess the difference is I'm not so cynical to think that everyone who expresses an opinion has some hidden agenda which somehow would give them an advantage.  I think people who express intelligent opinions are doing so because they want to make the game a little more fun for themselves and people like them.  Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist or too open minded.