Author Topic: The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions  (Read 2330 times)

Offline nopoop

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« on: March 27, 2004, 05:03:27 PM »
Time for the upgrade. Going to put in a new hard drive in the my old one and pass it down the line.

Built this one two and a half years ago but now adding up individual components, custom built toyboxs are cheaper than doin my own.

A couple of options so please comment:

I configured via options..

Platform: Mini-Tower mATX Chassis w/300W PS D865G Board
Processor: Pentium 4 3.2GHz 512K 800FSB Processor
Operating System: Microsoft Windows XP Home
Memory: 1GB DDR400 PC3200 Non-ECC Memory (512MB x 2)
Hard Drive: 80GB Ultra ATA 7200RPM Hard Drive
Optical Drive: 16X DVD ROM Drive
Second Optical Drive  52x32x52 CDRW Drive  
Video Card: GeForce FX5600 128MB 8X AGP Card w/ TV-Out
Sound Card: Creative Labs SoundBlaster Live! 5.1
Modem: 56k V.92 Modem
Network Card: Integrated 10/100 Network Adapter
Keyboard: Logitech Black Internet Keyboard
Mouse: Systemax Black Scroll Mouse

Price out the door is $1081.96

Second option is a "gamer" rig. Like the case much better, lotsa fans. Comes as they build them, no alterations.

Platform: Chieftec Silver Dragon Tower, 400-Watt power supply,   clear gamer side panel, extra cooling fans
Processor:Intel Pentium® 4 - 2.8GHz Processor
800MHz Front Side Bus
Memory:1GB (512MB x 2) DDR400 PC3200 Memory
Dual Channel Memory
intel i865PE Chipset, Dual Channel DDR
120GB SATA150 7200 RPM Hard Drive
256MB DDR nVidia GeForce FX5600 8x AGP video
52x32x52x16 CD-RW/DVD Drive (Black)
3.5" 1.44MB Floppy Drive (Black)
Intel 10/100Mbps Ethernet NIC
US Robotics 56K Fax/Modem
Dolby 5.1 Surround Sound Audio
3-Port IEEE Firewire PCI Card
Wireless Internet Mouse (Silver)
Wireless Internet Keyboard (Silver)
Microsoft® Windows XP Home Edition

Price out the door $1249.00

( this rig is more money bought as parts )

Comments ??
« Last Edit: March 27, 2004, 06:22:05 PM by nopoop »
nopoop

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Offline BB Gun

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2004, 06:34:49 PM »
Poop - there's no WAY thats cheaper than buying yourself as parts.... ESPECIALLY with those so-so video cards.

Example - the system we just configured for skybax over at AGW -
http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=682494

while it needs to add RAM (to get to a gigabyte) its got a video card thats TONS better than either of the ones in those systems.  Don't waste money on 256MB of video RAM on a slower video processor.

Or - here's my reworked one for you to compare with the above...

http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=681990

DVD burner included, Excellent RAM and a vidcard that is TONS better than what you have in the ones quoted above.

You can never "have one built" that is cheaper than one you build yourself if you compare like-to-like components - unless your buying the components from the vendor that would have built it for you anyway.  :)

BB
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Offline nopoop

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2004, 09:57:35 PM »
BB I'm very happy that you interloped :D

You guys are the best over at AGW hardware forum, an invaluable resource, but there's a pop up program that makes me going there impossible until it's cleared out.

Here's the "poop" ;)

Been goin on 3 years since I built the box. This time I don't have the time for research, opinions, research etc. that I did last time around.  I'm out of the loop now..

I want to go one step down from the top. New things coming on the horizon so it doesn't make sense for the extra $.

LOVE Antec tower cases with LOTSA fans ( presentation is everything :) ) Gonna slide over to intel this time simply because of the heat issues and it's more main stream. I don't overclock, and the price difference isn't as critical as it was last time around.

High end proccesor. 2.8 and up, one step down in the vidio card. Don't wanna spend 500 on a vidio card that will sell for 39 in two years. Vidio out for a new LCD moniter.. I've noticed that on these ''build your own" things the choices of vidio cards sux so your input is most appreciated.

Lookin at a MB that supports 800 FSB because that looks to be the setup now. Asus, Abit, gigibyte etc. Not too far off the beatin path. Not into experimenting at this time frame.

I know NOTHING of burners but it would be good to have. With the current condition of my hard drive I want a backup this time around. Like you, I have graphic stuff and incidental programs that I would DIE if I lost. That and the family photos. I don't have a clue for what's the good way to go there..I just want to backup programs and files in case something happens.

Glad you stopped by ya old greybeard, whaddya think ??
« Last Edit: March 27, 2004, 10:23:14 PM by nopoop »
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Offline Wolf14

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2004, 11:15:18 PM »
Just outta curiosity why XP Home?

I think in the long run you'd be more happy paying for the  upgrade to XP Pro.

Offline BB Gun

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2004, 11:24:59 PM »
BEST bang for the buck video cards right now are:

Radeon 9700Pro
Radeon 9800Pro (128 MB version)
nVidia 5900/5900XT (128 MB version)

Video card comparos:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1551640,00.asp
http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/index.html
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1955

Personally, I'd go with the Radeon 9800Pro over the Radeon 9700Pro or any of the nvidia cards.



Both have both TV-out and a DVI in addition to the normal monitor output.

Never say you don't overclock.  Not doing it is just throwing money away.   Especially on Intel Processors.

Oh, and for pop-up problems (noone is reporting that popup problem anymore) - toolbar.google.com  :)

The 2.8C is only 20 bucks more than the 2.4C, so not a huge difference there if ya wanna go that route.  It overclocks, too.  :)
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Offline DAVENRINO

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2004, 12:36:47 AM »
If ya build your own, I would definitely order the OEM copy of the OS and any other software you need at the same time since it is half price or less.

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Offline Skuzzy

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2004, 07:40:00 AM »
Tha firs system you listed does not have enough power supply.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline BB Gun

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2004, 02:03:40 PM »
If you're not using a multi-user home network, XP Home is fine vs XP Pro.  I run 5 machines with 6 different users, so use XP Pro, and am *this* close to setting up a linux domain server to ease the password maintenance.  A friend is planning on doing it first, so I'm waiting for him to do it and find the pitfalls.  :)

Any of the name brand 865PE boards would do ya fine.  The only real question is how many features you want.  The difference in price is negligible between the sets (10-20 bucks), so IMO, its worth it to get the feature rich boards.

Abit IS7
Epox EP-4PDA2+
Abit AI7 (Newer version of IS7, prescott ready)
Asus P4P800 Deluxe or Prescott Ready P4P800-E Deluxe
DFI Lanparty 856PE

A nice darkhorse candidate is the Asus SiS 655TX chipset based motherboard P4S800D-E Deluxe  A *****load of options (3X IDE ports = up to 6 PATA ide devices, 4 serial ATA ports with RAID 0,1 and 0+1 option, IEEE1394, 8 USB 2.0) performance comparable to the 875P boards at a price that hits the midrange of the 865PE boards.  Its not the strongest overclocker, but it will overclock some.

BB
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Offline nopoop

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2004, 03:13:01 PM »
Hey BB, been doin some figuring. Walk me through and comment on choices.

CHIEFTEC Dragon Servers Series Black Aluminum Workstation Tower Case without Power Supply, Model "AX-01BD U2F SF" -OEM
Specifications:
Case Type: Workstation Tower
Color: Black
Material: Aluminum
Drive Bays: 5.25'' x4,3.5''(External) x2, 3.5''(Internal) x4
Expansion Slot: 7
Front Ports: USB1.0 x2,IEEE1394 x1
Power Supply: N/A
Cooling System: 2 Rear Mounted fans and 1 Side Panel fan
Motherboard Compatibility: ATX
Dimensions: 473x205x522mm more info-> N82E16811125221  $69.00

2 Antec All Clear PRO 80mm 4 pin Fan for all 80mm Computer Case cooling requirements
Specification:
Compatibility: Case
Dimensions: 80mm
Nominal Speed(RPM): 2600
Max Air Flow: (CFM): 34
Max Pressure: 0.12 inch H2O
Heat Sink Material: N/A
Rated Voltage: 12V DC
Noise(dBA): 30
more info-> N82E16835129027 $10.90

Antec 430W Power Supply, Model "TRUE430" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Type: ATX
Maximum Power: 430W
PFC: No
Power Good Signal: 100-500ms
Hold-up Time: >17ms at Full Load
Efficiency: >68%
Over Voltage Protection: +5V trip point @+6.5V;+3.3V trip point @+4.1V;+12V trip point @+14.4V
Overload Protection: Latching Protection+5V @<47A;+3.3V @ <48A;+12V @ <18A
Input Voltage: 115 VAC / 230VAC
Input Frequency Range: 47-63 Hz
Input Current: 9.0A for 115VAC;5.0A for 230VAC
Output: +5V@36A, +3.3V@28A, +12V@20A, -5V@0.5A, -12V@1A, +5VSB@2A
MTBF: 80,000 hrs. @ 25ºC
Approvals: UL, TUV, CB, VDE, FCC CLASS B, DEMKO, NEMKO, SEMKO more info-> N82E16817103908  $66.00  
   
EPoX i865PE Chipset Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU, Model "EP-4PDA2+(Rev 2.0)" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Supported CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Processors
Chipset: Intel 865PE + ICH5R
FSB: 800/533/400MHz
RAM: 4x DIMM for DDR400/333/266 Max 4GB
IDE: 2x ATA100 by ICH5 up to 4 Devices, 2x ATA133 RAID by Highpoint HPT372 up to 4 Devices
Slots: 1x AGP 8X(1.5V), 5x PCI 2.3
Ports: 2xPS/2,2xCOM,1xLPT,1xLAN,8xUSB2.0(Rear 4),3xIEEE1394,1xGame,Audio Ports
Onboard Audio: C-Media 9739A 6-CH
Onboard LAN: BCM5705 Gigabit LAN
Onboard SATA/RAID: 2x SATA by ICH5R, 2x SATA by Sil3112A, RAID 0/1
Onboard 1394: 3 Ports by Agere FW323
Form Factor: ATX more info-> N82E16813123209  $107.00

Intel Pentium 4/ 2.8C GHz 800MHz FSB, 512K Cache, Hyper Threading Technology - Retail
Specification
Model: Intel Pentium 4 2.8C w/ Hyper Threading
Core: Northwood
Operating Frequency: 2.8GHz
FSB: 800MHz
Cache: L1/12K+8K; L2/512K
Voltage: 1.525V
Process: 0.13Micron
Socket: Socket 478
Multimedia Instruction: MMX, SSE, SSE2
Warranty: 3-year MFG
Packaging: Retail box (with Heatsink and Fan) more info-> N82E16819116161  $184.00    

Kingston ValueRAM Dual Channel Kit 184 Pin 1G(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 - Retail
Specification
Manufacturer: Kingston
Speed: DDR400(PC3200)
Type: 184 Pin DDR SDRAM
Error Checking: Non-ECC
Registered/Unbuffered: Unbuffered
Cas Latency: 3
Support Voltage: 2.6V
Bandwidth: 3.2GB/s
Organization: two 64M x 64 -Bit
Warranty: Lifetime more info-> N82E16820141423  $179.00

Western Digital 80GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model WD800JD, OEM Drive Only
Specifications:
Capacity: 80GB
Average Seek Time: 8.9 ms
Buffer: 8MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: Serial ATA
Features: Not specified
Manufacturer Warranty: 3 years
Remark: OEM Drive Only more info-> N82E16822135106  $85.00          
 
CHAINTECH nVIDIA GeForce FX5900XT Video Card, 128MB DDR, 256-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "SA5900X" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Chipset/Core Speed: nVIDIA GeForce FX5900XT/390MHz
Memory/Effective Speed: 128MB DDR/700MHz
BUS: AGP 1X/2X/4X/8X
Ports: VGA Out(15 Pin D-Sub)+TV-Out(S-Video)+DVI connector
Support 3D API: DirectX®9, OpenGL®1.4
Cable/Accessories: Not Specified
Max Resolution@32bit Color: 2048X1536@85Hz
Retail Box (See pics for details) more info-> N82E16814145072  $180.50

Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 PCI Sound Card, Model "SB0226" -OEM
Specifications:
Channels: 5.1
Max Sampling Rate: 48KHz
Hardware Encode: Dolby Digital
Digital Audio: 16-bit
Hardware Polyphony: 64 Voices
PC Interface: PCI
Connectors: Analog out, Mic-in, GAME/MIDI(See Details)
Package included: See pics
Special Features: EAX, Plug and Play, DirectSound® 3D more info-> N82E16829102165  $29.00    
 
Lite-On Black DVD-RW/+RW Drive, Model LDW-411S BLK, OEM
Specifications:
Write Speed: 4X DVD+R, 4X DVD-R, 4X DVD+RW, 2X DVD-RW, 40X CD-R, 24X CD-RW
Read Speed: 40X CD-ROM, 12X DVD-ROM
Interface: ATAPI/E-IDE
Buffer: 2MB
OS Support: Windows XP/2000/Me/98SE
Features: SMART-BURN,SMART-X
Remark: OEM pack (see pictures for details) more info-> N82E16827106921  $89.00    
 
Lite-On Black 16X DVD-ROM Drive, Model XJ-HD166, OEM
Specifications:
Read Speed: 48X CD-ROM, 16X DVD-ROM
Interface: E-IDE/ATAPI
Buffer: Not specified
Access Time: 120ms ( typical )
Data Transfer Rate: DVD-ROM 8600~21600 KB/sec, CD-ROM 3000~7200 KB/sec
Features: SMART-X Technology, Easy-Tray Design for Both Horizontally & Vertically Use
Remark: OEM (see pictures for details) more info-> N82E16827131603  $29.00    

Alps Black 3.5inch Floppy Disk Drive, Model DF354H121F, OEM
Specifications:
Capacity: 1.44MB
Average Access Time:3 ms (track to track)
Interface: 34 Pin Standard Floppy Connector
Form: 3.5 inch
Media Type: All Standard 1.44MB & 720KB 3.5 Floppy Diskettes
Features: High reliability attained by the employment of a direct-drive motor
Remark: OEM more info-> N82E16821103201  $7.00
 
 
Subtotal » $ 1,035  
 


Went with this Epox board because I've built two with Epox and have never had a problem.

No nothing of RAID, have it on my current system but.. :confused:

Went with the nvidia card because AHII has some issues with Radon and have have good luck with nvidia also.

Went with the smaller hard drive, I'm lean and mean and don't need the space.  No nothing of SATA. My current HD is ide :confused: Splain ???

Like the Case, it's a Antec clone and added the fans because that's my current setup. I'm used to noise.

Went with the 2.8 Northwood core P4.  The Prescott core has Cache: L1/12K+16K; L2/1MB but all the reviews there says she runs pretty dam hot..  All other P4's are running L1/12K+8K; L2/512K.  Have any knowlege of the Prescott ? It's 12 bucks more.
Can I run 3500 instead of 3200 memory on this board ??

May have room for a faster processor with the price so far.

Not bad :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2004, 03:45:52 PM by nopoop »
nopoop

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Offline Orig

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2004, 06:11:54 PM »
Why the soundblaster live?  I think the onboard sound may be as good or better.  The SB live is like 4 years old.  Get an audigy2, one of the other new cards like the turtle beach ones, or stick with onboard.  I never saw a review that gave any reason to get an SB Live! other than it's not as expensive as the good cards.  If you still need a gameport though, you're hosed unless you also choose to make the switch to USB sticks at this time.  If you don't have a reason to get the SB live!, leave it out and buy it later if the onboard sound is unsatisfactory.  You can probably find a joystick port addon card cheaper than $29.

IMHO.

At 2.8ghz, northwood core is as fast or faster than prescott according to some gaming sites, and definately runs cooler.

I have one of last year's batch of that same 80 gig hard drive.  It's quiet, pretty fast, and hasn't died yet.

I like ABIT motherboards but if you've had good luck with EPOX, then there's probably no reason to switch now unless you plan on getting big into overclocking.

If you plan on FSB overclocking, like maybe pushing cpu FSB up towards 250mhz as is possible with a good motherboard, then you'll want faster memory because you really need to keep the memory and cpu bus speeds the same to avoid losing all that speedup to delays associated with async bus speeds.  If you're not going to overclock, then don't worry about it.  Just keep the memory and cpu bus speeds the same because mis-matching them can actually lower performance.  

Value memory may require slower timings for a given bus speed, so check to see what it's rated at.  You could see up to a 5% or so difference in overall performance if you can run the memory at the lowest possible bios settings at whatever bus speed you're using.  On the other hand, really fast memory is also very expensive.

If you're going to be overclocking, consider a better heatsink/fan for the cpu.

Have you considered an AMD FX/Opteron system?  They're a bit more expensive but quite fast.  AMD has muddied the water very badly with how they rate and name their new 64 bit cpus so do a lot of research first.  Like their fastest new cpus require special registered memory, some have less cache or a slower/narrow bus, but none of that is obvious from looking at the cpu name.  If you can get past the inconsistent naming scheme, some of the 64 bit AMD cpus are very fast.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2004, 06:14:17 PM by Orig »

Offline nopoop

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2004, 06:28:55 PM »
Thanks Original, I'll have to switch sticks on the upgrade. A TM flight system won't cross over and it's soooo old.

Flight stuff is next on the list.

Have to research the USB stuff available. CH seems to be the system of choice.

So onboard would save some bucks.

No I'm not going Cougar..

Looks like a beeg buck pain..
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Offline ChasR

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2004, 06:34:15 PM »
Here's an AMD solution for around $1100 that will outperform either of the preassembled computers you were looking at.  

ChasR's Budget Computer    
 
Decrription Man. Model Best Price  
Motherboard Abit NF7-S  $ 92.00  
CPU AMD Athlon XP 2500+ (OEM)  $ 75.00  
Memory 512MB Corsair twinx512 3200LL  $153.00  
Graphics Card ATI  9800 Pro   $ 270.00  
Hard Drive  Western Digital WD400JB (8MB cache)  $64.00  
CPU Cooler Zalman CNPS7000A-Cu  $42.99  
DVD/CD Burner LG CDRW/DVD 48X24X48X16 EIDE   $53.15  
Case Antec SLK3700AMB  $68.83  
Power Supply 350W Antec in above  
Keyboard Logitech 967311-0403   $38.00  
Mouse  in above  
Floppy Drive sony MPF920ZCU1  $12.50  
Monitor  Samsung Dyna Flat 955DF -T/T 19"  $175.00  
Subtotal   $     1,044.47  
OS MS XP Pro  $ 139.90  
 Total including OS $     1,184.37  
   
Options  Savings  
Graphics Card ATI  9600 Pro  $149.41   $(120.59)  
Graphics Card ATI  9700 Pro  $219.00   $  (51.00)  
Motherboard ASUS A7N8X (New Version)  $85.99   $    (6.01)

This will overclock to 3000+ speeds (2.1 to 2.2GHz) with ease.
There are no heat issues with the Barton core AMD processors.

Offline bloom25

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2004, 07:26:53 PM »
I just thought I'd pop in and make a few quick points.  (Sorry, I don't have the time to read everything that's been posted before, so some of this may have already been said.)

1.  Prescott is slower and much hotter than Northwood.  I also worry about long term reliability of the early production Prescott CPUs.

2.  No current AMD or Intel based system has any upgrade path for the CPU and to a lesser extent the video card and ram.  AMD and Intel both are launching new CPU sockets in the next couple weeks.

My advice is to wait until late April or early May to build a system.  If you can't wait and are stuck on building an Intel based system - don't buy a Prescott type P4.

Offline BB Gun

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2004, 07:50:31 PM »
Depends on what he's doing, ChasR.

He can overclock that 2.8 to 3.2 if he's lucky, with the stock heatsink, and they'll be pretty close to equivalent (AMD vs intel) in the gaming area.  The intel, with its higher memory bandwidth, will do better in data intensive operations, like video editing.  

Either one will do him fine.  I do tend to push people towards AMD when they're squeezing the buck, but if someone has their sites set on a particular brand of processor, I won't argue with them after the initial suggestion of the alternative route.  The basic fact is they both work well and both are computing bargains at the moment when looking at the history of computing power vs price.  :)

Yes, the memory should be faster.  Some of that kingston HyperX PC-3500 in the list I linked earlier should do ya fine.  PC-3700/4000 will be overkill and not worth the price unless you're into *serious* overclocking.

Agreed too that the prescott is not worth the money.  Stick with the northwood.

No matter what comes out in the future wrt new platforms, they'll be coming at a price premium.  The best bargains will still be northwood and XP systems.  Never buy bleeding edge.  :)  No, there won't be a ton of upgrade options, but if you buy right, you won't need to upgrade for a couple of years, minimum, anyway.

Just use the onboard sound in whatever motherboard you get.  If it turns out you don't like it, you can always add a soundcard later.

Get some quieter fans.  :)  Why deal with noise when you don't have to?  That's why the sonata/SLK series from Antec are so nice - big slow 120 MM fans that run very quietly.

The epox will do ya fine.

BB
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Offline ChasR

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The hard drive is dying...It's time - opinions
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2004, 08:28:32 PM »
BB,
You save enough going the AMD route to get a much better vid card, 9800 Pro or 5900 FX, that if cost is a factor, that's the way to go.  I have no bias towards either Intel or AMD and have built both.  With cost no object, Intel was the way to go when I built my signature computer.  Today, AMD is the top dog and Intel has the bang for the buck near the top.  If the  budget is around $1000, I'd go AMD.  Bloom is right of course, if you can, wait.  At the least, today's top components will become tomorrow's best values.