Author Topic: Prop Engines... (Read 1692 times)

straffo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2004, 03:22:58 PM »

Cobra why don't you try yourself this trick ?

You will soon notice that Wilbus is right.

FYI I had a squady who used this "trick" because not having a hotas it was easier for him ... but with or without this "trick" he was still able to dispatch me easilly.

Cobra412 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2004, 10:31:38 PM »

I have noticed at times with some aircraft if I'm trying to conserve my planes damage to either the radiator or oil leaks some aircraft tend to lose airspeed rather dramatically. With this I could see how it could easily help someone in an overshoot situation. With the slightest nose over move it can take you slow and below the oncoming attacker.

As we all know negative push overs are the hardest to follow in a slashing attack. Some ride the fine line to the point of taking great risks at knowing if a plane can decelerate faster than them when attacking. I know there are great sticks out there that do this frequently. It's that slight chance you'll run into someone gaming the game in some way or another. I guess thats where it gets frustrating. It's kinda like those folks who create a violent snap roll to throw the plane in different directions. Not only is it hard to get a shot at times but they always seem to pull out right as your about to pass them. Is it coincedence that they pulled out right after, maybe, maybe not. But it all to often seems that even though the plane seems out of control the pilot is well aware of there condition and knows how to bring it out very quickly to a stable condition with guns trained on there would be attacker.

Straffo I can't see myself using this "trick". I tend to follow the more academic approach to flying. I'm more interested in learning the straight forward approach of tactics and maneuvers to get my kills as opposed to the "tricks" that aren't so realistic. I'm sure many pilots used some very drastic measures to evade getting shot down but some that are used here at times seem a bit unrealistic. In here we can just up again to fight again where as back then they didn't have that option. I may be taking the game beyond what it's original intention was but it just doesn't seem fun any other way. It gives you that feeling of actually accomplishing something to fly realistically. Especially when flying against a good pilot regardless of the outcome. Those engagements seem to hold more value than just the plain old gaggle engagements we see so much in the MA.

Cobra412 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2004, 10:57:26 PM »

Dedalos true he may not have and due to the fact I was not in the other Bishs aircraft to know what his closure rate was he may have just massively overshot. But as I stated Lazerus used this move on me about 6 months ago and it worked especially against a newer pilot. I haven't had someone try that on me since.

Dedalos as far as knowing what the other person might to I'm not sure I agree. In some instances you may not know exactly what they are going to do but there is a buffer zone you can place yourself in to react to almost anything they try. This is ofcourse if you know what you are capable of and what the other pilot and his/her airframe is capable of. More often than not if I'm closing fairly fast on a persons six depending how my AOT is I can assume with almost 75% accuracy what they might do.

This may not apply to the veteran pilots but to majority of the others. Very few would try to go to the vertical. With AOT to the slight left or right of their six you'll most likely get the break turn away from your flight path forcing the high deflection shot if you roll reverse and put you at a lag pursuit position which is what they wanted. This more often than not is the highest survival maneuver if you don't have maneuvering abilities in the vertical plane except for to the sky above. Considering most engagement any more or atleast the majority of them are below 3k we'll run into this scenario alot. The easiest counter if you expect this is to the hi yo yo or wing over. The biggest thing is assessing the situation and what escape possibilities they might have. It just seems more often than not you can get certain constant reaction from alot of pilots just by how you position yourself and how well you can hide your energy state. It's just a matter of having them react to you and you react even quicker to their maneuver. I still find that the veterans are extremely hard to predict regardless of what aircraft they fly and what you do to set them up.

dedalos · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2004, 11:56:38 AM »

I think we agree on most points. Get behind a 190 or 109 and expect them to keep rolling creating the litle warps to throw your shots off. Get close to a slow 51 and expect them to throw the plane into a spin. I don;t like that but what can you do. One think about the vets I would say is that they are predictable on the first pass. Proly cause you dont know who you are dealing with until after the end of the fight. Everytime I engage a vet, I kind of know who they are right away based on their fist move.

Wilbus · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2004, 12:11:43 PM »

Well some 190 pilots who don't know know how to fly a 190 might do that dedalos, any 190 pilot who can actually fly the plane will use the plane without gaming the game by creating warps. As for the 109 goes, it can't even Roll warp even if you put it in a spin. The P51 can though.

simshell · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2004, 01:50:34 PM »

if you cant kil pilots that throw away there source of power then you are not a very good pliot

it still makes me LOL evertime i hear some body being called a dweeb on 1 for shutting ENG down

i dont understand how shutting a ENG down is gaming the game im sure it was done in real life

kind of like that 1 guy who called the ROPE-A-DOPE a unfair move

dedalos · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2004, 02:40:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Well some 190 pilots who don't know know how to fly a 190 might do that dedalos, any 190 pilot who can actually fly the plane will use the plane without gaming the game by creating warps. As for the 109 goes, it can't even Roll warp even if you put it in a spin. The P51 can though.

Appologies, I did not mean to say all 190 or 51 or what ever plane pilots do that. I just wanted to say that you when engaging those planes you should expect that they could do something like that and theres is nothing you can do other than accept it as part of the game.

SlapShot · « **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2004, 03:58:41 PM »

I don't know how long many of you guys have been around, but about a year or so ago, there was a rash of this engine shutdown manuver.

It was being used in the Dueling Ladder and/or KOTH (can't remember which). Very heated debate on the BBS, and the general concensus was that the move is incredibley gamey, yet nothing could be done about it. With the overall general concensus disapproving of it, it seemed to vanished for the most part.

Just recently a have had 2 fights where I heard the engine shutdown, and I don't care what anybody says ... shutting the engine down is like putting air-brakes on. Loss of speed is incredible whenever I have encountered it.

Whenever I hear the engine shut off, I go up. I don't care how much E I have or don't have, I still go up, cause he is definately heading towards terra firma where I can re-aquire and re-engage from an advantage.

Cutting your engine in a stall fight with a Spit V, trying to cause an overshoot, will only send you to the tower that much quicker ...

dedalos · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2004, 04:35:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
I don't know how long many of you guys have been around, but about a year or so ago, there was a rash of this engine shutdown manuver.

It was being used in the Dueling Ladder and/or KOTH (can't remember which). Very heated debate on the BBS, and the general concensus was that the move is incredibley gamey, yet nothing could be done about it. With the overall general concensus disapproving of it, it seemed to vanished for the most part.

Just recently a have had 2 fights where I heard the engine shutdown, and I don't care what anybody says ... shutting the engine down is like putting air-brakes on. Loss of speed is incredible whenever I have encountered it.

Whenever I hear the engine shut off, I go up. I don't care how much E I have or don't have, I still go up, cause he is definately heading towards terra firma where I can re-aquire and re-engage from an advantage.

Cutting your engine in a stall fight with a Spit V, trying to cause an overshoot, will only send you to the tower that much quicker ...

Yeah, like there is anything anyone can do to avoid getting killed when you get on their six .

simshell · « **Reply #24 on:** March 31, 2004, 05:27:15 PM »

i just want to ask

what well this whining do what are you trying to change how were you planning to fixe people shutting down there ENG?

Cobra412 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 31, 2004, 07:44:15 PM »

Simshell obviously you didn't read the whole post. Instead you'd rather sit here and claim how stupid others are for falling for such tricks. I'd suggest before you start pointing fingers you might want to check your own flying capabilities and then come back with some alternative solutions to what's being discussed.

Basically what I was looking at is ways to make pilots think twice before shutting their engines off in a dogfight. No damage= Random Engine restart errors on when E is pressed except for when the aircraft is on the ground. It's as simple as that. Take the chance of shutting off your engine but it may not start again.

I'd say add a less than 25% fuel rule into that too but not sure how that would go over either. When less than 25% fuel is present random no starts not applicable. But with this I'd think we'd be praising those who forget to check fuel status and know when to call it quits and go home.

Furious · « **Reply #26 on:** March 31, 2004, 08:31:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
...Just recently a have had 2 fights where I heard the engine shutdown, and I don't care what anybody says ... shutting the engine down is like putting air-brakes on. Loss of speed is incredible whenever I have encountered it...

...and being able to turn down your plane's engine sounds enough to enable you to hear the enemy's engine being toggled is somehow less gamey??

Oh, and BTW:Midnight's engine toggle tests

straffo · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2004, 01:27:52 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Cobra412
Straffo I can't see myself using this "trick". I tend to follow the more academic approach to flying.

I've highlighted this part because it's here I see a deep difference between what you want and what is the MA.

It's a get killed or be the killer environement ,there is nothing academic we are not speaking of "ice skating" or duelling it's more use the best tool (aka ACM) to kill the other bastige in his red plane

.

Actually midnight prooved that killing your engine was not an great advantage (btw thanks for the link Furious).

Don't bother with this ,learn ,learn and learn you will soon notice how this trick is a poor man attempt at survival.

Lot of beginnner use this ,aswell as gear down and so are easy kills. But if a vet use this trick he will be hard to kill not because of this but because he is a vet !

moot · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2004, 11:29:46 PM »

The relative ratio of usefuleness of just this one maneuver, engine toggle, is nill compared to the total volume of others any pilot in the MA could and should have..

Shutting off engine is less effective for bleeding E than throttling down (albeit quickly) except when you need real abrupt thrusts.. maybe to twist your plane in and out of a stall.

There was an old thread about this and HT said it was not that hard to do, not so risky, but then again it's hard to comment since it's not really worth the risk when you're airborne in RL. You could penalize too much engine toggling in AH, but there wouldn't be much difference since it is not that effective.

Since it's no big deal, it probably falls in the same category as other advanced engine management and unless it's quick to code in, it'll probably not be done till the whole engine model is redone.

btw, it's doubtful Lazerus beat you by engine toggling.

Cobra412 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2004, 11:40:01 PM »

Moot, Lazerus could beat me any day of the week so thats a mute point...But saying he did not use engine toggling to get me to overshoot is incorrect. If he is fact such a good flyer then why would he do this or even need it in the first place? All I stated is I've had it used once on me and Lazerus was the one who did it. Why use it if it doesn't work especially like Lazerus who shouldn't need it anyway or should know better that it doesn't?