Love how AC stall in AH2

[Virage]

I just wanted to say that.  

[F4UDOA]

What is differant?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
What is differant?

The F4U enters an immediate unrecoverable inverted flatspin at the slightest hint of a stall. Wow,  it's gonna make stallfighting against those corsairs way easier. Thx HTC.

[Kweassa]

The stalls aren't that much different, but the way how a plane reacts to the stall seems to be pretty noticeably different, F4UDOA.

 ...

 For instance, to repeat the experience I've wrote down in another thread, I decided to test the N1K2 out and met a Bf109F-4. The pilot was koonan, pretty decently managing the 109F, but the N1K2 is simply a hugely advantageous plane against a '42 Bf109F-4.

 I fooled around for a bit, decided to just shoot down the 109, and when the F-4 went by me into a semi-vertical spiral climb. I countered it with the timed early hard-turn shi* N1K2 pilots would typically do. The 109 had a bit of speed advantage, but it wasn't by much. According to my AH1 experience, the F-4 was to be just toast.

 Well, what happened next surprised me. The Bf109F-4 succeeded in going into a straight 90d vertical. My N1K2 was aiming for the shot, speed was near 100mph, pitch angle was about 50~60degrees upwards. The 109 was 400yards in front of me and the distance between his position on the screen, and my gunsight was shorter than a thumb's length.

 Now, if I know how AH1 N1K2s react, all I had to do in that situation was just keep pulling the stick, and it will still nose up perfectly despite of the low speed. I'd get a full 1~2 second of shooting opportunity, shoot the 109 down, and then stall out.

 To my surprise, I couldn't get my sights on the 109. The N1K2 refused to respond at that angle and speed. When ever I pulled harder it would start wobbling sideways indicating an imminent stall. A mere thumb's length in the screen and I couldn't close that gap, in a N1K2!

  After the fight I asked koonan what his 109 was - I thought it was a G-10 for sure. He said it was a F-4, and he had to pop out full flaps to get his plane to suspend itself momentarily in the air. He himself said he was surprised - he said that in AH1, in such desperate situation usually he's nailed right out of the sky in N1K2s, and didn't think he'd survive that encounter either.

 ..

 I think it means, the burden of low speeds weighs much heavier than how it was in AH1 - in AH1, as long as your plane had the ability to manage high AoA maneuvers, low speed didn't matter much. A Spit or a N1K2 or Hurricane would just pull its nose upwards in a stable manner to achieve shooting angle no matter what speed it was in, as long as it was higher than the stall speed. I think that's a bit changed in AH2.

[kevykev56]

That sounds like they have been working on the flight model a great deal. I have always hated the insane ability to hang an AC in the air without airspeed.

Have they changed any of the turn/G-load effects on airspeed and closure effect?

Example: N1k/Yak/La-7 are the biggest bugged.  Aircraft A is traveling at 300KIAS Aircraft B is traveling at 300KIAS they both head on and aircraft A continues in same direction when Aircraft B turns on his six...This is where the problem is. As Aircraft B is turning there is a Point where the Delta between the two aircraft should be zero. Now remember the closure rate was 600Knots. by the time that aircraft B completes his turn he SHOULD be way behind aircraft A no matter what the aircraft is. That closure rate is 546 feet per second. If you didnt start your turn until the merge and the turn time of  aircraft B 180deg turn was 5 seconds the distance to target would be 2730 feet. Although the turn rate FPS would not be linear it should be fairly close. Now remember that you just reversed direction in Aircraft B so therefore E should be effected and you are no longer moving at 300Kias so distance should still be increasing between Aircraft A and B.  Now if Aircraft B is in a faster aircraft he would eventually close on Aircraft A but not until Aircraft B had a greater speed.  

This is not the case in AH1 a N1k/Yak/La7 can turn on just about any aircraft and be within firing range and not lose airspeed and close on aircraft. My squad have tested this in the AH1 MA and seen this sceneriao play out. My FR are still to low to try any of this in AH2.

This to me is the most unrealistic Part of AH1 and really hope to see it changed in AH2.

Rhin0

[hitech]

kevtjev56: What you describe dosn't happen the way you describe. .

Please send me a film of what you describe, and make sure you look at the film first. You will find that either
1. The planes were not going the same speed.
2. One plane had an alt advantage.
3. One plane turned long before the merge.

Also unlike what would seem to make intuitive sense, in a plane the quickest way to close distance is not always a straight line.

You can close on an airplane by divinging/ hence picking up speed, then pulling up for a shot. Note you will start falling back again faster once you have reached  your starting alt, but it did allow to close the distance for a shot.

HiTech

[humble]

It does seem like a couple of planes....nikki in particular...can gain tremendous E during a high speed/high G diving reversal and maintain that advantage for significantly longer than seems possible....

kevykev56...what hitech is saying is that your viewing events "two dimentionally" sp?) The bogie is manuvering in such a way that it has already achieved significant "angle off" as you cross paths and/or has significantly higher E state...

That being said I've seen (and have film somewhere) of a nikki maintaining ~500+ ias on the deck for 2+ minutes after a relatively short dive...literally out ran my tiffie. The yak and la-7 are exceptionally powerful machines designed for low/mid alt combat ops...exactly where most AH fights occur. The nikki to me still has what I would consider to be a bit of "uber" e retention.

Your using IAS without mentioning alt...if your at lower alt and thats close to TAS then your probably neg E to start with.

[kevykev56]

Hitech,

I don’t have film available right now (Work) but I have, and so have members of my squad filmed this as I describe. I know you have programmed this and have a much more intimate understanding of the math going on here so I will take your input and look over and maybe even try a few more scenarios and film them also. I will send you those when complete, if I still see the problem.

I completely understand that when you turn you are going to dive to gain E to catch an aircraft. I however since discovering this anomaly have exploited it. I know airspeed gives me no real advantage on an aircraft that is HO with me. He can turn and be on my six and catch me in a matter of seconds. As I described that in the turn the delta of 0 occurs between the two aircraft. Albeit for a very short time. I see no dramatic increase in range occurring after merge. I don’t know the math for each aircraft in a turn but reversing direction by 180 deg is going to decrease speed unless you take your time and do it very very slow. Bottom line is you rarely get something for nothing, esp. with aerodynamics. That is what I see happening.

Thanks for your time on this. I will enjoy getting this sorted out, even if it is just a misunderstanding on my part.... but I doubt it I'm never wrong...

Rhin0

[Director]

Sounds to me like the P38 is going to be a real beast.

[reacher15]

In AH1

i have seen a YAK and an La7 merge at no less then 600 knot's. I was in the La7 doing 350 and this is supposing the YAK was doing 250 knots. We HO'd not taking any shots at each other. I knew is I was safe.....um...but...ah hmm...to my surprise in 5 seconds the YAK was closing on me from 500 ft. he was at 400 in the next second and shot me down. Well...um...i was LIVID to say the least.

I went into the DA with a squad mate to replicate this and sure enough all he had to do was a flat 180 deg turn and he was gaining on me. my squady was doing arounf 350 also.

now...lets say the YAK was doing 250...he ain't catchin me. lets say the Yak was doing 350 also. he would have more E left after his turn then if he  was doing 250. however his turning radius would increase at 350 as opposed to 250. he still ain't catchin me.
At least not in real life.

Try it yourself and come to your own conclusions.

As a side note i have a film of an La7 turning in less then one second. it has been anylised by at least ten others. The conclusion was that the La7 did something strange. The film is not from my aircraft but from a squad mate and as your hear our communications we we knew he was fast and also knew something strange had happened.

If you would like this film i'll email to ya.

I am sure that AH2 has this squared away. If not i'd have to say
this has not been explored for making better future models...or...the are hidden flaws in other of the new models that will remain or will be descovered

Fair winds ALL!

Reacher

[Pyro]

Originally posted by reacher15
In AH1

i have seen a YAK and an La7 merge at no less then 600 knot's. I was in the La7 doing 350 and this is supposing the YAK was doing 250 knots. We HO'd not taking any shots at each other. I knew is I was safe.....um...but...ah hmm...to my surprise in 5 seconds the YAK was closing on me from 500 ft. he was at 400 in the next second and shot me down. Well...um...i was LIVID to say the least.

I went into the DA with a squad mate to replicate this and sure enough all he had to do was a flat 180 deg turn and he was gaining on me. my squady was doing arounf 350 also.

Try it yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Ok, I'll bite.  I tell you what, I'll do this with you.  I'll fly the La-7 and you can fly the Yak.  We'll do this as you describe and then you can send me the film.  If you can duplicate what you wrote above, I'll comp you your next month of AH.  I'll be available to do this during the days this weekend.  Let me know.

[Shane]

Originally posted by reacher15
As a side note i have a film of an La7 turning in less then one second. it has been anylised by at least ten others. The conclusion was that the La7 did something strange. The film is not from my aircraft but from a squad mate and as your hear our communications we we knew he was fast and also knew something strange had happened.

If you would like this film i'll email to ya.


Reacher

yes i'd like this film... because if i remember it was my la7 in this situation... i'm fairly certain i did a lead turn, everything looked normal on my end, but i'd be interested to see it from your perspective.

my email is swatpeace@hotmail.com

[Virage]

1 aspect of AH that  contributes to this effect is the size of the planes and icons.  what looks to be a HO pass often has a flight path seperation of up to 300 yds.  This creates less angles to get on ur 6.

Also the small planes make it difficult to judge aspect angle, especially at high closing speeds when an early turn may start @ 1k ~ 800 yds out.

of course fm could be hosed too .. I always wondered about high angle of attack Form Drag in AH, but wouldn't know where to begin to test it.

[TimRas]

Originally posted by humble

That being said I've seen (and have film somewhere) of a nikki maintaining ~500+ ias on the deck for 2+ minutes after a relatively short dive...literally out ran my tiffie.

I would like to see that film. My quick offline test (dive and level OTD with WEP on) results (AH1) using film viewer:

Deceleration time from 550mph to 400mph (TAS):
N1K2-J: 27sec.
Typhoon: 57sec.

550mph to 450mph:
N1K2-J: 14sec.
Typhoon: 25 sec.

[mars01]

1 Month, you don't sound so confident Skuzzy, comp the whole year

Now thats balls, and worth it:)