GV questions/concerns

[humble]

1st...understnad that I hate the entire concept of GV's and really don't feel that they have any place in a "flight sim"...that being said...they are a significant part of the AH community and integral to the "scoring system" (and can be fun at times)

Having now messed with them for two full tours I'm appalled at the overall state of affairs. For the last 60+ days I've been pretty satisfied that that all the anomalies are simply the result of garbage code...after all GV's are an afterthought. However you cant ignore things that go far beyond statistical modeling. example I watched a player score 10+ 1 hit kills in a pz while being hit numerous times from ~1200 yds (I hit him 4 times and saw him get hit 3+ other time)....this is repeated over and over with the same individuals...you listen to the vox and you here it repeatedly.

My question is simple...is filming this stuff worthwhile...and does anyone care at all? Personally if your not going to correct the code (here or in AH2) or police the problem...then get rid of this segment of the game.

I've played this stuff on line for 10+ years...this is a REAL issue....not the whinning of the ACM challenged you hear occasionally on VOX...the GV portion of AH is worse than what I see online in DOD...my concern is it's going to spread to the rest of the game.

If you spend alot of time in GV's and think I'm full of crap...post that here also...I'm curious how people feel about it. From what I hear on vox you have a fair number of folks verbalizing thoughts of quitting over it...and to me its gotten much worse over the two months I've paid attention to it.

[LAWCobra]

I dont mess with GVs for that very reason.

[emodin]

The GV portion of AH is just like the fighter /bomber/attack part of Aces High: you are not going to be good at it until you work with it for a while and begin to understand the mechanics of it.  Experience with the GV model teaches you how to aim, lead, where to hit, and a host of other tricks.  (If you think 2 months is a lot of time, think about how long it took you to get the flight model down-and that was probably when you were flying 100% of your AH time).

Furthermore, one-hit killls don't just exist in the GV model: pilot kills are a part of the aircraft damage models as well.  It just so happens that having a 75mm shell landing in your lap is a bit more traumatic to the human body than a mg round.  Knowing where to hit, and actually hitting that place are the key to killing GVs with only one or two rounds.  

As for AH being a "flight sim," I don't recall ever reading that HTC was not going to model as much of WW2 combat as possible.  In fact, from some of the information out there on what they have said about future plans for the game (infantry/submarines), I expect that althought the CORE of the sim will probably stay in the air, they will not ignore other aspects of WW2 combat.

As it is, I happen to enjoy the GV part of the game.  I usually focus on fighters, but running around in the dirt being sneaky can be fun too.

[MOIL]

Originally posted by humble
1st...understnad that I hate the entire concept of GV's and really don't feel that they have any place in a "flight sim"...that being said...they are a significant part of the AH community and integral to the "scoring system" (and can be fun at times)

1st off AH is not a "flight sim" you may like to think that or call it that, but it is NOT a flight sim.
2nd, if your such the "flight sim" pilot thats great, then go play IL2 or LO-MAC those are "flight sims" and there is no GV's to drive!
3rd HTC labels this game with the name "Ace High" which is all it is....A NAME,   not a game descrpition. Their main page, commercials & all other advertising claims it as a "World War II" sim.  "Attack by Land, Sea or Air"
4th, being a GV guy myself {LTAR the Knights only dedicated GV squadron} I will agree with you that the GV model needs some work and I'm possitive HTC will address the issues along with numorus others.
But to say GV's in AH are an afterthought or a waste of time OR dont belong, you should start looking into other "Flight Sims"

[68DevilM]

here here, well said ltar moil

[humble]

I recognize GV's are a part of the game and it's evolution...I'm actually lobbying for the powers that be to address some very real issues that seem to exist...I'm just being honest...as a 10 yr flight simmer...I've never felt that GV's are integral to the game...especially if they are inserted via bozo code.

LAWCobra....my feelings exactly (not really changed)

emodin...I have spent alot of time in GV's, and skill (or lack of) isnt apart of my beef...I'll give you a couple of "bullets"

1) damage model is garbage. If the fighting compartment of a GV is penatrated the probability of catostophic damage is close to 100%. There are very few documented stories of vehicles continung to fight after a single penetration. Obviously engine/trackissues are a bit different but most vehicles are abandoned then.

2) statistally impossiblity of variable damage...i.e certain players consistanty scoring 1 hit kills at ~2400-2800 yds and/or repeatedly surviving multiple hits at "close range" ~800-1200 yds. This is coming from VOX were many including lot of LTAR openly comment on specific players repatedly...this is community knowledge at this point.

3) "Invisable tanks" and all the other DOD style garbage that seems to be rampent.

MOIL...I'm not against GV's in AH at all, just upset that this garbage is allowed to continue so openly. The more it's tolerated the greater the likelyhood it will trickle into the rest of the game. Secondly, I think that every part of this game should stive to have the same attention to detail and "professionalism" as the original flight component...Hitech set the bar here...not me....I'm just asking them to live up to it.

[humble]

Originally posted by emodin

Furthermore, one-hit killls don't just exist in the GV model: pilot kills are a part of the aircraft damage models as well.  It just so happens that having a 75mm shell landing in your lap is a bit more traumatic to the human body than a mg round.  Knowing where to hit, and actually hitting that place are the key to killing GVs with only one or two rounds.....

As it is, I happen to enjoy the GV part of the game.  I usually focus on fighters, but running around in the dirt being sneaky can be fun too.

emodin...

So if I actually hit the driver slit from ~600 tank should die?

I hit a PZ (turret facing away) directly on driver slit 3 times while he rotated turret around to face me (he then got 1 ping kill). This same guy had been hit at least 5 times prior to me getting him (I was "vectored" to him) while others were engaging. He was still alive afterward for a good 2-3 minutes.

Also at ~2400 yds you really cant control shot to that degree...turret vs body...yup...driver slit?...as much luck as skill. Pretty typical is "encounters" I had with gustov1 yesterday...1st time he pinged me twice at 2600~ or so till I "found him"...I popped him with 1st shot (no clue if he was hit earlier).  2nd time hit him 3 times at ~2800...2 ricochet's and one flash (no dmage) ...his 1st hit took out my turret. Next time I hit him at 1600 and took out engine...his shot killed me (this pretty typical "statisticalexchange")...now 2nd example As I rolled out from VH saw tank (ours) die on edge of ridge line...as 2nd friendly moved to spot saw shell inbound...put warning out on text and pulled up side of ridgle line while 2nd GV died...put 4 rounds into GV from ~1200...side view with turret turned to my general area.

no damage showed...died 1 ping...reup...put 3 more in him die 1 ping...from vox he's been hit another 4-5 times at least and had 10+ 1 ping kills....statistically impossible.

[SlapShot]

"... if your not going to correct the code (here or in AH2) ..."

"The more it's tolerated the greater the likelyhood it will trickle into the rest of the game."

You make 2 rather huge assumptions here that, if I were HT, I would have a issue with.

First ... you can forget about getting anything fixed in AH I. HT has crossed the line in software development and once you cross it, you do not go back unless something catastrophic occurs. GV issues in AH I, I don't believe qualify ... YMMV.

Also, what makes you think that these issues aren't addressed in AH II or will not be addressed in AH II. Do you know for a fact that HT hasn't put in endless hours and 1000s of lines of code to address the GV issues ? It appears as tho you have an inside line as to the current and future development of AH II code ... which I doubt.

Second ... This is a direct attack on HT and his ability to write clean and stable code. You are insinuting that his code writing and code maintenance abilities  are below par and are also insinutaing that as time progresses, the AH II will only degrade in quality.

Bad code, flawed code, whatever you want to call it, does not trickle into other logic structures within a product. You make it sound like when HT isn't looking, some flawed GV code will clone itself and magically insert its flawed logic into other logic routines ... like a virus. Flawed code is written and does not move from where it was put.

[humble]

I'm not "attacking" anyone, I've been here since the beta and contributed time as a trainer etc...

When I talk about "bad code" I'm referring to things like having a clear line of sight (via your gun optics) but having your rounds hit the building your semi "hidden" behind. I've noticed a number of issues specific to GV's that apparently have been around for a while (from various threads and vox conversations). Other things like "invisable" tanks are less clear and some of the "results" are clearly suspect when viewed from a "probability index".

First ... you can forget about getting anything fixed in AH I. HT has crossed the line in software development and once you cross it, you do not go back unless something catastrophic occurs. GV issues in AH I, I don't believe qualify ... YMM

I'm not really asking for anything to be "fixed" in AH1 and I agree that GV issues dont/shouldnt rank high on the pecking order...BUT...if these are "coding" issues then acknowlege that you'll address the issues in AH2 (at least define what the issues are).

Second ... This is a direct attack on HT and his ability to write clean and stable code. You are insinuting that his code writing and code maintenance abilities are below par and are also insinutaing that as time progresses, the AH II will only degrade in quality

I'm not attacking HT or AH2 in any way...simply stating the obvious...that this particular aspect of the game isnt up to the high standard imposed on the rest of the product. Personally I think the FM for AH2 is a quantum leap over what we have now.

Bad code, flawed code, whatever you want to call it, does not trickle into other logic structures within a product. You make it sound like when HT isn't looking, some flawed GV code will clone itself and magically insert its flawed logic into other logic routines ... like a virus. Flawed code is written and does not move from where it was put.

Are the problems code related...or something else?

The whole point of this post was asking a couple of simple questions:

1) are the "GV issues" entirely an issue of "bad" code?
Personally I think not....after two+ months of GV play

2) do the "powers that be" even care about it?
since I've never seen a reply to any GV related posts I think not

3) Should I film or encourage others to film "anomalies"?
no answer so far

4) Or am I simply a whinny noob who's full of $#%^....

[Shiva]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Bad code, flawed code, whatever you want to call it, does not trickle into other logic structures within a product. You make it sound like when HT isn't looking, some flawed GV code will clone itself and magically insert its flawed logic into other logic routines ... like a virus. Flawed code is written and does not move from where it was put.

...until it is copied from where it is and pasted into another part of the code because the code there needs to do pretty much the same thing, and it's easier to do a cut-and-paste and change what's different than write the code again from scratch. This is called 'code reusability', and is widely practiced in the industry. This has the unfortunate side effect of propagating hitherto-unnoticed errors into other parts of the program, where they may or may not attract attention.

[LAWCobra]

Well dont think Im against GVs.
I simply suk in them so I tend to fly more often than drive a GV.
I might grab an osti and tag some bad guys at a base but man they gotta fly right at me for me to hit em LOL.

So I leave the GV stuff to the PROS LTAR and Company:aok

[Horn]

Originally posted by humble


Are the problems code related...or something else?

The whole point of this post was asking a couple of simple questions:

1) are the "GV issues" entirely an issue of "bad" code?
Personally I think not....after two+ months of GV play

2) do the "powers that be" even care about it?
since I've never seen a reply to any GV related posts I think not

3) Should I film or encourage others to film "anomalies"?
no answer so far

4) Or am I simply a whinny noob who's full of $#%^....

I don't think you're too whiney as these bugs have been around a long time now. As AH2 is now running, what, 6 months late? The bugs date from awhile back.

I've been in a GV once or twice and can relate the following: there are pretty particular issues with the damge model in GV's--a tiger dying by running over a bit of bldg on the ground, becoming "stuck" in a building and having to exit, turning a tiger sharply on a hill at 10 mph and having it roll, the bouncing tiger after its tracks are killed (but not in a panzer), shootin an m3 four times with panzer HE shells and no kill--well the list goes on.

Bottom line HTC won't fix 'em in AH1. Remains to be seen whether they are addressed in AH2 either--I hope so as the bugs have been with AH1 over a year now. We'll see. And hope.

h

[Pei]

Originally posted by Shiva
...until it is copied from where it is and pasted into another part of the code because the code there needs to do pretty much the same thing, and it's easier to do a cut-and-paste and change what's different than write the code again from scratch. This is called 'code reusability', and is widely practiced in the industry. This has the unfortunate side effect of propagating hitherto-unnoticed errors into other parts of the program, where they may or may not attract attention.

Somewhat off-topic but this is not what 'code-reusability' means. What you are describing is just cut-and-paste.  Code-reusability is the designing and writing of units of code so that they can be used with little or no modification by other units of code or applications. There is a huge difference: having to cut-and-paste indicates poor reusability because you have to have 2 (or more) copies of the functionality rather than re-using the original.

[MetaTron]

If, you think really hard on the matter, you may notice that similar things happen in aircraft. Some planes can twist and turn in ack all day and never take a hit, while others can't get near the stuff without going directly to the tower (just as an example).

Just realize that things are going to happen that do not jive with reality, and then move on. Please don't delay AH2 any longer.

Thank you.

[MOIL]

I will have to agree with humble on about 99% of the issues, if there is one group in all of AH that spends more time in GV's than anyone, it's LTAR. {And maybe 1st SS Panzer's}
But they will tell you the same story, 1 hit from a Panzer to my Tiger....then boom I'm dead!!  I hit the the M3 in my Tiger or Panzer for that matter and have to hit him 2 or 3 times ???
Go figure, and my favorite, bombed to death in a Panzer, make it though only to run over a 2x4 in the city/town AND I FREAKIN' DIE!!!!!!!!!
Yes this is all contributed to "poor code"   I dont care who you are, what your coding skills are, what games ya made....the bottom line is there is a problem with the code & or certain aspects of it.
Does this mean HTC sucks or has a bad game ?  Hell no, it just simply means things need to be corrected or revised.
My biggest concern to be frankly honest with HTC and the AH community is I would hope they take these things seriously, because it is issues such as these that start out small then just kill a game!!
Once you leave that bad taste in someones mouth and they have a choice to play a similar game {with maybe better features} you'll be hard pressed to get that customer back. That you can take to the bank.
P.S. LAWcobra for the "PROS" post on LTAR