Author Topic: Why all the complaining about HO? (Read 7056 times)

opus · « **Reply #30 on:** April 15, 2004, 12:43:43 AM »

I gotta agree. Although I don't go for the head on (low percentage chance of kill for a great chance of a bad position), I can't gripe about how another person flies if they shoot me down. I made the worst mistake - not them.

Darkish · « **Reply #31 on:** April 15, 2004, 04:15:48 AM »

When the horde piles into a nice little 1 on 1-2 dogfight you'd better believe I'm going to accept a HO shot if offered.

Guess I'm saying that if you have complete advantage and want to throw it away by giving me a guns solution stop crying and learn to vulch better.

Pei · « **Reply #32 on:** April 15, 2004, 05:22:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Darkish
When the horde piles into a nice little 1 on 1-2 dogfight you'd better believe I'm going to accept a HO shot if offered.

Guess I'm saying that if you have complete advantage and want to throw it away by giving me a guns solution stop crying and learn to vulch better.

I do think the same: the HO gives both parties more or less even chances of killing each other. THe only time it makes sense to accept it is when you are ata disadvantage: it may be the only shot you get or if you are outnumbered it might be worth it to kill one of the opposition quickly.

If you accept a HO from a position of advantage then you are asking for it and have no right to whine (though it sometime fun to hear).

SlapShot · « **Reply #33 on:** April 15, 2004, 08:31:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Redd
Not sure I agree with that completely.

What about the classic FW/109 HO merge.

They come straight at you from a long way off for the HO merge/joust.

There's no way you want reciprocate the HO merge (a) it's dweeby and (b) they have bigger guns

You duck and weave at merge to try to avoid them (and their cannons) .

Every now and then they do manage to spray enough cannon on the merge to land a couple of pings before extending to the horizon line.

They fly away thinking - gee that was great deflection shooting.

I float to the ground thinking " nice HO FW dweeb"

It doesn't always take 2 to HO

Redd

If you can't shoot them, at the same time, then it's not an HO.

It maybe as you say a "spray and pray" deflection shot, but it is definately not an HO.

SlapShot · « **Reply #34 on:** April 15, 2004, 08:33:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by -MZ-
Unless one is directly behind the other, but otherwise that is a good point.

If an HO is a 0 degree deflection shot, then a shot at someone's 6 o'clock is a 180 degree deflection shot ... just as easy as a 0 degree shot, just less deadly for you ...

SlapShot · « **Reply #35 on:** April 15, 2004, 08:41:33 AM »

"The biggest thing is the bogey that extends, reverses flys back at you starts shooting 1k out coming right for you nose to nose, then extends and trys it over and over, that dopey bogey has no knowledge of how to fly and takes the easy way out."

Anybody that start shooting at me from 1k out, for the most part, does not live to make another turn.

As soon as I see the lead fly from that far out, I immediately start a lead turn into the merge, while the are still concentrating on trying to land their desparate attempt at a kill. Once we merge, its a very short amount of time before I am on their 6 (with ease) and they die just as quickly.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #36 on:** April 15, 2004, 09:27:39 AM »

Is what some try to do Slapshot, assuming you have already gained seperation before intiating the lead turn. Which you would want to be out of plane with the opponent. If one was not out of plane and no seperation you would be turning right broad side of your opponent offering him a perfect deflection shot. The gain the seperation is what foils alot of peoples plan for lead turning/gaining angles, is like the old merge where you both fly at each other 1 vs 1, you dive slightly and maybe to one side, the opponent matches every move you make to always be heading right for you trying to stay in the same plane of flight. I usually try to avoid a HO and try to gain angles, but if I feel / think I don't have a good seperation distance, I 'll try to skid/slip by them. If I realize they are spraying then I will give em a burst back with prob a 7 out of 10 chance I killz em. Then I wil taunt them by saying see what a HO gets you, hehe.
granted it don't always work. And I end up on the losing end:lol

SlapShot · « **Reply #37 on:** April 15, 2004, 09:47:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Is what some try to do Slapshot, assuming you have already gained seperation before intiating the lead turn. Which you would want to be out of plane with the opponent. If one was not out of plane and no seperation you would be turning right broad side of your opponent offering him a perfect deflection shot. The gain the seperation is what foils alot of peoples plan for lead turning/gaining angles, is like the old merge where you both fly at each other 1 vs 1, you dive slightly and maybe to one side, the opponent matches every move you make to always be heading right for you trying to stay in the same plane of flight. I usually try to avoid a HO and try to gain angles, but if I feel / think I don't have a good seperation distance, I 'll try to skid/slip by them. If I realize they are spraying then I will give em a burst back with prob a 7 out of 10 chance I killz em. Then I wil taunt them by saying see what a HO gets you, hehe.
granted it don't always work. And I end up on the losing end:lol

The original scenario (that you described - 1K sprayer), and what neither of us brought to light, was the fact that anybody who starts spraying at 1K out really has no clue as to ACM, so for the most part, if one does not get sucked into the HO, the clueless one loses.

The scenario descibed above, in almost all instances, would not take place with someone that starts spraying at 1k, but rather someone who does have a clue, cause they are trying to counter your lead turn. 1K sprayin' HO dweebs cannot/do not perform such counters. They usually put all their eggs in the HO basket and think little of the consequences if they miss the HO.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #38 on:** April 15, 2004, 10:55:36 AM »

Yes it is a fine line between the 2, the 1k sprayer ( I called him a dopey bogey with no knowledge of how to fly or takes the easy way out) and the HO'er that counters every change of direction you make while heading to the merge/lead turn.

Sorry I mixed em together without explaining the difference

I have seen many that approach the same, the only difference being the HO'er with knowledge has a lil better aim and is quicker on the reverse although you( the other guy) is even quicker for the fact you started gaining angles first opting not to go for the HO.

I have to admit I have gotten sucked into that HO to HO a bit, but I usually will not fire unless I see the other guy fire first, especially if he is countering every change of direction I make. most times on the first merge I'll ignore the HO, but if opportunity arises I'll usually take the high deflection ( top front canopy shot / below the nose my view)
on the second merge

I still have the opinion of incouraging the new guys to work on their SA/BFM/ACM and learn their planes abilities verses playing this as a game( war game) I thought this was a multiplayer WWII online flight simulation. Learning new things is what keeps it interesting!

SlapShot · « **Reply #39 on:** April 15, 2004, 01:13:34 PM »

I guess we are both on the same page TC ... <>

BigMax · « **Reply #40 on:** April 15, 2004, 05:41:13 PM »

There is no real reason to complain about it in my opinion.... If a HOer hits you, you didn't establish seperation and deserve what you get...

Of course I only count HOs as initial merge shots where it's quite obvious that the other pile-it is grasping for straws...

Two circle merges happen, in a turn fight, you meet nose to nose - my suggestion is shoot cause the other guy will be...

Most whines about HOs and Vulchs occur simply because of one person's view on how the game should be played isn't in line with their opponent's...

Personally, I don't normally HO, but if I have a decided advantage I might. I won't vulch unless we are going for a field capture... But that's just me. I don't expect anyone to use my same ethics.

pellik · « **Reply #41 on:** April 16, 2004, 10:16:09 AM »

If those long range HOs are giving you trouble, I sugguest you look up the "energy egg" maneuver for your merge. I get a rediculous number of kills by going into a shallow dive about 2k out and timing my pull up so I'm at least slightly nose up when we pass. N00b dweebs will usually try to split-s so they can keep their skillless HO pass attemt going longer, and will be hard nose down when you pass. Just go into an immel and roll 180 degrees while vertical, pull your nose back down, and admire the view of their 6 as they run like hell. If they start turning you have a clear position advantage already, and if they extend you just gained a sizeable chunk of energy on them. Every time your opponent turns nose-down he is blowing energy fast.

-pellik

SlapShot · « **Reply #42 on:** April 16, 2004, 12:51:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by pellik
If those long range HOs are giving you trouble, I sugguest you look up the "energy egg" maneuver for your merge. I get a rediculous number of kills by going into a shallow dive about 2k out and timing my pull up so I'm at least slightly nose up when we pass. N00b dweebs will usually try to split-s so they can keep their skillless HO pass attemt going longer, and will be hard nose down when you pass. Just go into an immel and roll 180 degrees while vertical, pull your nose back down, and admire the view of their 6 as they run like hell. If they start turning you have a clear position advantage already, and if they extend you just gained a sizeable chunk of energy on them. Every time your opponent turns nose-down he is blowing energy fast.

-pellik

Hmmm .. I do that alot ... didn't know they had an official name for it.

fuzeman · « **Reply #43 on:** April 16, 2004, 05:54:11 PM »

I could be wrong but the 'energy egg' isn't really a maneuver. It just describes the energy state, gains and losses, in a loop. A plane doing a loop will look from the side to fly an egg shaped course. At the top, pointy end of egg, your slower, loosing speed and therefore your curve at the top is sharper. At the bottom, rounder part of the egg, you are speeding up and faster resulting in a larger arc for that part of that loop.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #44 on:** April 16, 2004, 09:31:11 PM »

You are not wrong fuzeman, for most loops ( the ones used in AH the most) the loop will or would look similar to an egg. Unless someone was using less elevator input performing a low G manuevering loop. Then this would look more like a rounded loop while retaining as much E as possible at the top of it. Hope I explained this clearly and described it correctly ????