Author Topic: Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?  (Read 1651 times)

Offline Naso

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1535
      • http://www.4stormo.it
Re: Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2004, 03:45:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo
So, let's hear your opinions. Who exactly is shooting at US troops and colaborationist Iraq government troops in Iraq ?

Are they terrorists ? Why ? What defines terrorism ?
Are they antisocial elements just looking for trouble ?
Are they mindless religious fanatics ?
Are they freedom fighters ?
Are they elements of former regime fighting to bring back forgotten Saddam ?
Al Qaida elements ?


g) All the above.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2004, 03:49:39 AM »
Yes Hristo, this Muqtada al Sadr is a modern day George Washington....

I do have to ask do you really think heavily armed gangs loyal one to one person are conducive to a democracy?

I know you dislike the usa, thats your right, but really are you thinking through the tings you are saying?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2004, 03:59:34 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2004, 04:26:02 AM »
Muqtada al Sadr doesn’t have wide spread support among the Shi’a. If the entire Shi’a population supported him the US and coalition forces we be in far more trouble.

What he has is core radical group, he gets money from Iran and his people have access to the many weapons caches in Iraq. Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and other Shi’a leaders have no love for Sadr. In fact here has been open conflict between the 2.

Sistani is a coward and instead of coming out against Sadr he holds back and will allow the US to deal with Sadr.

Sadr people and the Sunni's aren't "working" together. Sadr most likely used the situation in the Sunni triangle to "act up".

Why is Sadr acting up now? Because the closer Iraq moves towards self-government the quicker he will be pushed aside.

Hristo,

You make some of the most ridiculous assumptions.

Quote
to unite Shia and Sunni in fight against common enemy


Non-sense, provide your source? You just made that up didn’t you? Because if know anything about the differences between the Sunni and Shi’a you would know how asinine that assumption is.

Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, Muqtada al Sadr father, was assassinated along with two of his sons by agents of Saddam Hussein in Al-Najaf in 1999. The Sadiq al-Sadr killing intensified Shi’a anger at the ruling Sunni minority and led to more severe government repression of the Shi’a. The Shi'a resistance also took the form of bolder actions against the regime, including hand grenade and rocket attacks on security headquarters, Ba’ath Party offices, and presidential residences in Baghdad, as well as small arms attacks in many parts of the capital. This prior to the US invasion.

Muqtada al-Sadr and his young followers have sought to replace more traditional factions as the voice of Iraq's Shiite majority. The al-Sadr family portrays themselves as the ones doing the most to redress decades of suppression by Sunni Muslims under the Saddam's rule.

The al-Sadr group has drawn charges of involvement in attacks and intimidation in Al-Najaf that have highlighted political differences among Shi'a political organizations. The most notable of those attacks was a mob killing of a pro-US cleric, Abd al-Majid al-Khoi, shortly after his return from exile in London in early April. Al-Khoi was himself the son of another extremely powerful former grand ayatollah, Abolqassem al-Khoi. Al-Khoi was murdered as he emerged from the city's Imam Ali Mosque in a gesture of reconciliation with the mosque's custodian, who was popularly considered to have collaborated with Hussein's regime. The custodian was killed along with al-Khoi and it is unclear whether al-Khoi was an assassination target or was struck down because he tried to defend the other man.

Immediately after al-Khoi's murder, supporters of al-Sadr surrounded the house of another grand ayatollah in Al-Najaf, Ali Sistani, in what was taken to be a gesture of intimidation. Sistani -- who has said that Shi'a leaders should limit themselves to religious questions and stay out of politics -- went into hiding and only re-emerged after tribesmen loyal to him raced to Al-Najaf.

Sadr’s followers (Al-Mahdi Army) have had more recent clashes with Sistani followers as well.

You used phrase like "Iraq is like Vietnam". More non-sense. Do a little search on Vietnam and educate yourself.

The more you speak the more ignorant it appears you are.

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2004, 05:12:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes Hristo, this Muqtada al Sadr is a modern day George Washington....

I do have to ask do you really think heavily armed gangs loyal one to one person are conducive to a democracy?


Certainly not. That means problems.

Quote
I know you dislike the usa, thats your right, but really are you thinking through the tings you are saying?


I don't dislike USA. I like Mc Donalds, I like AMD, I like Sandra Bullock. Why should I dislike it ?

I dislike US policy towards third world, especially when they have natural resources. I dislike Bush and Rumsfeld for being liars with hidden agenda. A kind of deja vu that Iraq, don't you think ?

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2004, 05:18:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Hristo,

You make some of the most ridiculous assumptions.

 

Non-sense, provide your source? You just made that up didn’t you? Because if know anything about the differences between the Sunni and Shi’a you would know how asinine that assumption is.

 


No, haven't made it up. It was an Al Jazeera journalist on CNN who said it. Didn't tape it tho.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2004, 05:19:28 AM »
Ok so why are you then seeming to put a positive spin on the activities of these gangs in the context of this thread on iraqi democracy?

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2004, 05:21:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok so why are you then seeming to put a positive spin on the activities of these gangs in the context of this thread on iraqi democracy?


Because I don't see them as gangs. Instead, I see them as freedom fighters.

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2004, 05:27:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz


You used phrase like "Iraq is like Vietnam". More non-sense. Do a little search on Vietnam and educate yourself.

The more you speak the more ignorant it appears you are.



Iraq is like urban Vietnam is what I said.

Similarities : guerilla uprising (although urban, not in jungle), puppet government (inefficient), increasing US involvement, death ratio heavy in favor of US troops, as time passes the war is less and less popular

Differences: no superpower support for guerrilas (only Arab nations), US mercenaries (civilian contractors), this war is about oil

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2004, 05:38:16 AM »
No support for VC or NV? Ever heard of China or the Soviet Union?

But that’s not the point. Iraq is not an "Urban Vietnam". Not in terms of casualties, number combatants, or based on the level of domestic opposition. The US forces hands are not tied by cold war political concerns etc. Also Vietnam was more then a "guerilla uprising".

There is no comparison to Vietnam. That’s just another silly statement you must have picked up from CNN or Al-Jazeera.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2004, 05:39:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo
Because I don't see them as gangs. Instead, I see them as freedom fighters.


So gangs loyal to a single individual are bad for democracy while freedom fighters loyal to single individual are good for democracy?

BTW the ultimate difference, unce you cut throughall the bs, between a freedom fighter and a teeorist is your perspective and your preference. I see that you are siding with either pro-saddam baathits and/or militant extrimst islamics loyaly to al qaeda or mr sadr. Thats too bad.

You must be delusional if you think any of thouse groups are yearning to give any sort of freedoms to iraqi people..
« Last Edit: April 08, 2004, 05:43:25 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18738
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2004, 05:42:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo
And WTG Eagler !

Went straight to name calling, personal attack and "America hating" stuff.

Why don't you answer the questions instead ?

Why are insurgents terrorists ? Usually the terrorists attack civilians. These seem to be attacking armed forces, so another name might be more apropriate.


keep praising those "freedom fighters" histro, they are ur heros right?
and you can say with a straight face that you do not despise America? I don't think so ...

I think you and those with similiar mindset hope big bad America fails in her attempt at establishing a democracy in the mid east. Every newscast with dead westerners is a good newscast...

though as someone else stated above, those in the mid east may not be civil/educated enough to handle anything other than a dictator, a ruthless one at that..

ps
it is about more than Iraq WMDs, it is about more than Iraq, always was ... history will bear this out.
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2004, 06:04:43 AM »
He doesn’t even know who it is that is resisting. Freedom Fighters? Who are the fighters and who are they liberating? Neither the Sunnis nor Sadr's people represent the will of the Iraqis.

Hristo sounds more like Goebbels when he heard that "shots" were exchanged between Soviet and US troops in '45. He's just latching on to tiniest bit of "good news" to convince himself is "right all along".

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2004, 07:11:15 AM »
Please stay civil and do not go to personal insults. How else can I believe US is bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq if US citizens cannot control themselves on this board ?

Anyway, I do not sympathize Hussein or al-Sadr.

I, however, sympathize with little people who are standing up against the aggressor.

Yes, I know this has many faces as well, as not everyone is there for good motives. But in general, I sympathize with Iraqi uprising. You can quote me for this anytime.

If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18738
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2004, 07:15:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo
Please stay civil and do not go to personal insults. How else can I believe US is bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq if US citizens cannot control themselves on this board ?

Anyway, I do not sympathize Hussein or al-Sadr.

I, however, sympathize with little people who are standing up against the aggressor.

Yes, I know this has many faces as well, as not everyone is there for good motives. But in general, I sympathize with Iraqi uprising. You can quote me for this anytime.

If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.


then u r a terrorist lover, cheering the death of every american and her allies, hoping democracy (the wish of the MAJORITY of Iraqis) does not succeed .. just as I have stated all along which makes my statements true and not a personal attack but a description of ur creepy self <- THAT is a personal attack a-hole <- as is THAT!
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2004, 07:28:02 AM »
I agree Eagler !
Hristo you don't follow the party line !
You're a traitor be prepared to make your auto-critic in front of the soviet !


It remind me something ...where did I hear that for the 1st time ?