Author Topic: Insurgents try to hinder progress towards democracy ... really ? (Read 1719 times)

Ripsnort · « **Reply #30 on:** April 08, 2004, 07:30:45 AM »

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Originally posted by Hristo
Please stay civil and do not go to personal insults. How else can I believe US is bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq if US citizens cannot control themselves on this board ?

Anyway, I do not sympathize Hussein or al-Sadr.

I, however, sympathize with little people who are standing up against the aggressor.

Yes, I know this has many faces as well, as not everyone is there for good motives. But in general, I sympathize with Iraqi uprising. You can quote me for this anytime.

If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.

Sounds to me like you want Iraq to return to a totalitarian state with state sponsored terrorism again, for the "sake of the little people" who apparently by your definition "need to be repressed". Maybe the next dictator could raise that $25,000 to families of "martyrs" to $50,000 ? That'd be a good boost for the "Freedom Fighters" wouldn't it?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #31 on:** April 08, 2004, 07:33:48 AM »

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Originally posted by Hristo

If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.

You hope it will be succesful.. Ok..

What outcome will result out of a succesul uprising?

And also you say you are not supporting al sadr, but rather the "little people." has it ever dawned on you for a second that al-sadr is maipulating these "little people" to enhance his own political power? You are so willing attribuite evil motives to Bush, yet yiou seem to be so blissfully naive towards the motives of the other side...

BTW how much did you sympathize with the serbs in Knin area? I mean standing up against the evil croat fascist state all around them... Were they freedom fighers too?

Hristo · « **Reply #32 on:** April 08, 2004, 11:50:31 AM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You hope it will be succesful.. Ok..

What outcome will result out of a succesul uprising?

And also you say you are not supporting al sadr, but rather the "little people." has it ever dawned on you for a second that al-sadr is maipulating these "little people" to enhance his own political power? You are so willing attribuite evil motives to Bush, yet yiou seem to be so blissfully naive towards the motives of the other side...

BTW how much did you sympathize with the serbs in Knin area? I mean standing up against the evil croat fascist state all around them... Were they freedom fighers too?

Little people are always manipulated, so much that it is inevitable. But at least let them be manipulated by Iraqis, not someone else.

Single persons in command of large armed formations are always dangerous. Bush has already proven it. I do not doubt al Sadr will turn out worse than it seems now. But for now it is all they've got.

Your Knin remark almost brings me to start insulting you. A nice spin, these two wars are totally different. Elaborating it here would take too much and we all know what you wanted to accomplish by mentioning it here. Instead of you patronizing me, let me ask you then - what have you done to help free Croatia back in the 90s ? I have spent my time where it counted. Where did you spend yours ?

-dead- · « **Reply #33 on:** April 08, 2004, 11:57:15 AM »

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde:
"To lose one city may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose
two looks like carelessness."

Lance · « **Reply #34 on:** April 08, 2004, 12:33:07 PM »

Hristo, you are about to convince me that all these flag-waving, war mongering American cowboys are right about the spineless, terrorist-sympathising euroturds like yourself.

I'm about as critical of this war as it gets over here and even I understand we cannot just pull out. Seriously, what good do you see in America withdrawing from Iraq before incubating a stable, self-sufficient government over there?

Frogm4n · « **Reply #35 on:** April 08, 2004, 12:39:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Lance
Hristo, you are about to convince me that all these flag-waving, war mongering American cowboys are right about the spineless, terrorist-sympathising euroturds like yourself.

I'm about as critical of this war as it gets over here and even I understand we cannot just pull out. Seriously, what good do you see in America withdrawing from Iraq before incubating a stable, self-sufficient government over there?

quoted for truth

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #36 on:** April 08, 2004, 12:56:19 PM »

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Originally posted by Hristo
If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.

You're a naive fool. The groups who fight against America hinder progress toward democracy because they stand to lose the most under a democratic system. As minorities, the Sunnis by definition face a future guaranteeing their political marginalization. As such, they fight to preserve their power base and undermine any move toward representative government.

Al-Sadr likewise faces political obscurity if things progress as planned; he represents a small fraction of Shiites in Iraq. In an NPR piece on him about four months back, they noted that he used thugs to intimidate and chase off civilian contractors who attempted to renovate or otherwise improve the slums where most of his followers lived. When the slum dwellers wondered why they did not see any of the lifestyle improvements promised to them by the Americans, Al-Sadr called Americans liars and thieves and fanned the flames of anti-Americanism when he himself was to blame for their persistent lack of improvement.
(I believe this links to the story)

These are not freedom fighters, at least not in any modern sense of the word. They fight for political power in a land where Hussein's defeat left a massive power vacuum. Don't pretend that they represent the Iraqi people generally or that they hold their best interests at heart. They don't seek to overthrow oppressors so much as they seek, themselves, to oppress. Do you honestly believe that whatever "freedom" they offer to the Iraqi people represents what most Iraqis desire?

-- Todd/Leviathn

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #37 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:20:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hristo

Your Knin remark almost brings me to start insulting you. A nice spin, these two wars are totally different. Elaborating it here would take too much and we all know what you wanted to accomplish by mentioning it here. Instead of you patronizing me, let me ask you then - what have you done to help free Croatia back in the 90s ? I have spent my time where it counted. Where did you spend yours ?

I was helping the serb freedom fighters in knin by hoping they would win, surely!!!

You see Hristo you can make a similar case about the freedom fighters in Knin...

Did they want croatian "freedom?" Obviously not!

Did they have any reason to trust croatian government with alterior secret motives? No...

Surely they would rather be opressed and maipulated by Miloshevic than Tudjman? Right, hes their own guy?

They were only the litlle people defending their homes against croatian facsists, who were around them, remaember it was only short time ago that croatian nazis killed so many...

They were just defending thair way of life and their families.

Everyone knows that a serb supporter would in his mind be justified in making such an agumenet. A serb, or Boroda for example would say just that. To him they would be freedom fighters....

VICTORY TO SERB FREEDOM FIGHTERS OF KNIN!!!!

And that is exactly the argument you are making, that these arrorant selfish power hungry thugs are not criminals but rather well wishing freedom fighters...

What Hristo? Not so comfy with freedom fighters now are you?

Now that was disguisting to type Hristo, but neccesray...

Hristo · « **Reply #38 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:40:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I was helping the serb freedom fighters in knin by hoping they would win, surely!!!

You see Hristo you can make a similar case about the freedom fighters in Knin...

Did they want croatian "freedom?" Obviously not!

Did they have any reason to trust croatian government with alterior secret motives? No...

Surely they would rather be opressed and maipulated by Miloshevic than Tudjman? Right, hes their own guy?

They were only the litlle people defending their homes against croatian facsists, who were around them, remaember it was only short time ago that croatian nazis killed so many...

They were just defending thair way of life and their families.

Everyone knows that a serb supporter would be 100% justified in making such an agument in his own mind. A serb, or Boroda for example would say just that. To him they would be freedom fighters....

VICTORY TO SERB FREEDOM FIGHTERS OF KNIN!!!!

What Hristo? Not so comfy with freedom fighters now are you?

Now that was disguisting to type Hristo, but neccesray...

This is rather insane logic, I must say. There is no parallel between Serbs in Krajina and Iraqis in Iraq. Serbs in Krajina were fighting an aggressive war to gain land. Iraqis in Iraq are fighting to have their land back. If you want similarity, Croats could be called freedom fighters back then and Serbs the aggressors.

Croatia was invaded by federal army, helped greatly by local Serbs. So, actually, Croats were freedom fighters.

I don't see how Serbs could be labeled freedom fighters as they were imported from Serbia proper. The local forces were never a factor, they were overrun in 3 days once they were left without support.

I really don't see how can you twist facts like this, but in the spirit of attacking me, I guess it is in order.

However, you still haven't answered where were you when your country needed you. Perhaps an ocean away ? You can mail me at ntomlino@globalnet.hr if you want to find where I was.

Thrawn · « **Reply #39 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:44:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Batz
Muqtada al Sadr doesn’t have wide spread support among the Shi’a. If the entire Shi’a population supported him the US and coalition forces we be in far more trouble.

That might not be the case anymore.

"NY Times

WASHINGTON, April 7 — United States forces are confronting a broad-based Shiite uprising that goes well beyond supporters of one militant Islamic cleric who has been the focus of American counterinsurgency efforts, United States intelligence officials said Wednesday.

That assertion contradicts repeated statements by the Bush administration and American officials in Iraq. On Wednesday, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that they did not believe the United States was facing a broad-based Shiite insurgency. Administration officials have portrayed Moktada al-Sadr, a rebel Shiite cleric who is wanted by American forces, as the catalyst of the rising violence within the Shiite community of Iraq.

But intelligence officials now say that there is evidence that the insurgency goes beyond Mr. Sadr and his militia, and that a much larger number of Shiites have turned against the American-led occupation of Iraq, even if they are not all actively aiding the uprising."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/international/middleeast/08SHIA.html?ex=1082088000

Hristo · « **Reply #40 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:44:54 PM »

Thanks for allowing me to post though, I doubt I could go post pro US view on an Iraqi board, I give you that.

Still, letting it all out like Funked or Eagler doesn't help. Why don't you guys go take a walk in downtown Baghdad and tell the Iraqis to eat **** and die, eh ? I mean, it is liberated afterall.

As for uprising and warlords, I know full well what dangers it implies - you don't have to remind me. Nobody is clean, nobody is an angel, that's for certain, and especially in Iraq. But at least Iraqis should be allowed to decide for themselves, not Bremer and his thugs.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #41 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:47:15 PM »

No hristo... I'm not attcking you. If I was it would be obvious..

However to a serb your explaination is insuficent, it is biased and based on croatian fascist propaganda. To him the knin area fighters were freedom fighters, battling to save ther families agains the threat of a new ustasa state. You know thats how they felt.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #42 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:49:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hristo
Thanks for allowing me to post though, I doubt I could go post pro US view on an Iraqi board, I give you that.

Still, letting it all out like Funked or Eagler doesn't help. Why don't you guys go take a walk in downtown Baghdad and tell the Iraqis to eat **** and die, eh ? I mean, it is liberated afterall.

As for uprising and warlords, I know full well what dangers it implies - you don't have to remind me. Nobody is clean, nobody is an angel, that's for certain, and especially in Iraq. But at least Iraqis should be allowed to decide for themselves, not Bremer and his thugs.

Muqtada al-Sadr would allow you to post!!!! and he would allow Iraqis to decide for themselves!!!

Its funny you consider al-Sadr terror gangs to be freedom fighters while you describe Bremer and the us army as thugs...

Why should we belive for one second that your staements and opions are not mostly dervided from some hatred against the usa? Yiu must see that it comes across as such?

Hristo · « **Reply #43 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:49:56 PM »

DMF makes good point about Al-Sadr. Al Sadr certainly is not a man to trust.

However, he is a product of this war. A bad man for bad times, but who is to blame ? Who started the war in the first place ?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #44 on:** April 08, 2004, 02:53:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hristo
DMF makes good point about Al-Sadr. Al Sadr certainly is not a man to trust.

However, he is a product of this war. A bad man for bad times, but who is to blame ? Who started the war in the first place ?

Correct, lets not support the al-sadr loyal militia, we should let the ex Baath party freedom fightors win and then the coalition authority should pull and pull the out troops and free Saddam from jail so he can contionue his benevolent rule over the iraqi people...

BTW if you say that al-Sadr cant be trusted then why are yiou wishing that HIS military forces win, the very forces that he has under his sole and direct control?

What do you think he will do with that power if his forces, AS YOU WANT THEM TO, win?

If the insurgency wins al-sadr wins.