Dun Dun Dun.....notherone Bites The Dust!

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Staga
Eagler do you know who are men behind those names? Do you know what they have done and what are they doing?

Yeah, so what?

Every fighting force has its share of conscientious objectors, even among those that were the cream of the crop.

Just because somebody agrees with you doesn't make you or them correct.

Regarding your belief that suicide bombing is the most effective weapon in their arsenal, I think that 'weapon' is a misnomer. Little kids blowing themselves up to prove a point isn't a military attack, it's propeganda of desperation. It's the loudest, most shameful way of screaming 'look world, what these oppressors are making us do'. Guess what? Stop doing it and you'll not only have a better chance at talking your way into a suitable agreement(because the Israelis WON'T give up hunting this scum, EVER, no matter how many armchair politicians like yourself pass judgment on them from a distance of 5 thousand miles, or how many idiots like the Corrie girl try to apply Height-Asbury protest tactics against them), you'll also save a generation of young people from indoctrination and death at the hands of 'pediatricians' like Rantisi... May his soul burn in hell.

[Gnslngr]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Yeah, so what?

Every fighting force has its share of conscientious objectors, even among those that were the cream of the crop.

Just because somebody agrees with you doesn't make you or them correct.

Regarding your belief that suicide bombing is the most effective weapon in their arsenal, I think that 'weapon' is a misnomer. Little kids blowing themselves up to prove a point isn't a military attack, it's propeganda of desperation. It's the loudest, most shameful way of screaming 'look world, what these oppressors are making us do'. Guess what? Stop doing it and you'll not only have a better chance at talking your way into a suitable agreement(because the Israelis WON'T give up hunting this scum, EVER, no matter how many armchair politicians like yourself pass judgment on them from a distance of 5 thousand miles, or how many idiots like the Corrie girl try to apply Height-Asbury protest tactics against them), you'll also save a generation of young people from indoctrination and death at the hands of 'pediatricians' like Rantisi... May his soul burn in hell.

wow Well Said

[ravells]

Well, if you look into the abyss....

Don't you think that part of the reason why we have suicide bombers is that many Palestinians have been treated shamefully over the years?

In a way, we create the nature of our enemies by the way we behave.

It's sort of like karma.

Ravs.

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by ravells
Don't you think that part of the reason why we have suicide bombers is that many Palestinians have been treated shamefully over the years?

Yes, you are correct.

The reason the Jews didn't rip that 16 year-old would-be suicide attacker limb from limb last month, burning his body and dancing around the corpse, is because history has never been anything but kind to them.

[Staga]

Originally posted by Eagler
yes.

So you know who they are. Nice.

Would you tell us all what are they doing and why (their reason, not yours or Capt.Porks opinion)?

[ravells]

I'm sure the Palestinians would be happy to have a fair stand up fight in defined military terms.

Why don't you send them Apache gunships, tanks and other military paraphenalia so they don't have to use children to try to infiltrate road blocks?

Race persecution takes many forms and the Jews of all people should be more sensitive to that than most people, given the level persecution they have suffered in the past.

They say that abused children are more likely to grow up to be child abusers themselves...maybe the same is true for peoples that have been abused too.

I know the Israelis have tried to offer olive branches in the past...as have the Palestinians. But in both cases, there is a minority who want to derail the process.

Ravs

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by ravells
But in both cases, there is a minority who want to derail the process.
 

This is true. On both sides, a majority just want peace. There will always be the 'no peace without victory' crowd.

As for the Israelis being sensitive towards oppression, I think that a more important factor in their behavior as a society is being very sensitive to potential oppressors of the future.

As when dealing with any bully, the Israelis have come to understand the force is the only language of importance. They've used it before, with success, against a consolidated, numerically superior, well armed Arab force. Their fight with the Palestinians is but an extension of the larger conflict that has been waging, on multiple fronts, hot and cold, since the inception of the Israeli state.

As sad as it is, we cannot expect generocity and benevolance from a group of people that consider their lives and the lives of their children constantly threatened. Furthermore, the anti-Israeli climate brewing in Europe is doing very little except to polarize their beliefs and strengthen their resolve to stay tough.

They said 'Never Again'. They vowed to do anything to prevent it.

I believe them

[Gnslngr]

Originally posted by ravells
I'm sure the Palestinians would be happy to have a fair stand up fight in defined military terms.

Why don't you send them Apache gunships, tanks and other military paraphenalia so they don't have to use children to try to infiltrate road blocks?

Race persecution takes many forms and the Jews of all people should be more sensitive to that than most people, given the level persecution they have suffered in the past.

They say that abused children are more likely to grow up to be child abusers themselves...maybe the same is true for peoples that have been abused too.

I know the Israelis have tried to offer olive branches in the past...as have the Palestinians. But in both cases, there is a minority who want to derail the process.

Ravs

do you not see you are contradicting yourself.


first you bring up.....Lets arm the terrirsts so they can have a fair fight so they dont have to use children.....

sorry that's about as dumb as it gets

then you say...both cases there is a minority that wants to derail the process.

WELL WHO DO YOU THINK THE IDF HAS TARGETED AS OF LATE?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

the IDF are NOT storm troopers....they are not blowing themselvs up to kill woman and children....yes in past fights some innocent palistinians have died but that does not excuse suicide bombings.

you morons that think killing ONE terrorist and his body guard is the same thing as a teenager blowing him/herself up on a buss or cafe full of kids is just MORONIC to say the least.

[ravells]

Yes, but let's not forget how much the Palestinans have been screwed by other Arab states.

Frankly, if the Jews realised that they could do more for the Palestinians than other Arab states could, then they'd be on a winner in getting peace.

Ravs

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by ravells
Yes, but let's not forget how much the Palestinans have been screwed by other Arab states.
 

See, that's the part that pisses me off even more. The Palestinians, it seems, are being used as the fulcrum upon which the greater Arab world is trying to leverage a campaign of public opinion against Israel.

The fact is, for their own reasons, each of which is justified in the eyes of the individual group, nobody is willing to take a step towards change.

It's a very complex syndrome. It seems that no single cure will leave the organism healthy.

[ravells]

Originally posted by Gnslngr
do you not see you are contradicting yourself.


first you bring up.....Lets arm the terrirsts so they can have a fair fight so they dont have to use children.....

sorry that's about as dumb as it gets

then you say...both cases there is a minority that wants to derail the process.

WELL WHO DO YOU THINK THE IDF HAS TARGETED AS OF LATE?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

the IDF are NOT storm troopers....they are not blowing themselvs up to kill woman and children....yes in past fights some innocent palistinians have died but that does not excuse suicide bombings.

you morons that think killing ONE terrorist and his body guard is the same thing as a teenager blowing him/herself up on a buss or cafe full of kids is just MORONIC to say the least.

---------

I was responding to the question as to *why* the Palestinians use terrorism as a means of fighting back.  They have no other options.

As I said in a previous post (which you may not have read), I have no sympathy for Hamas.  However I do believe that you are a little naive that killing Hamas leaders is going to bring peace. The way to bring peace is to make Hamas irrelevant. By killing their leaders, you make them more relevant. Just look at the news coverage on the number of Palestinians vowing revenge. This just means more Israeli civilians being killed on buses and in nightclubs. Sharon's policy is utter stupidity. Bush has not helped by ripping up the road map.

You have a very cartesian view about solving human problems,  as Capt. Pork said, it's a complex problem. Using a blunt instrument is not going to solve it.

In my experience, solving human problems works far better if you show people kindness rather than violence.  Sure violent people will try to derail it. But IMHO, people are less likely to want you dead if you are nice to them.

Ravs

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Staga
So you know who they are. Nice.

Would you tell us all what are they doing and why (their reason, not yours or Capt.Porks opinion)?

they are following their beliefs instead of their duty

[Gnslngr]

Originally posted by ravells
---------

I was responding to the question as to *why* the Palestinians use terrorism as a means of fighting back.  They have no other options.

As I said in a previous post (which you may not have read), I have no sympathy for Hamas.  However I do believe that you are a little naive that killing Hamas leaders is going to bring peace. The way to bring peace is to make Hamas irrelevant. By killing their leaders, you make them more relevant. Just look at the news coverage on the number of Palestinians vowing revenge. This just means more Israeli civilians being killed on buses and in nightclubs. Sharon's policy is utter stupidity. Bush has not helped by ripping up the road map.

You have a very cartesian view about solving human problems,  as Capt. Pork said, it's a complex problem. Using a blunt instrument is not going to solve it.

In my experience, solving human problems works far better if you show people kindness rather than violence.  Sure violent people will try to derail it. But IMHO, people are less likely to want you dead if you are nice to them.

Ravs

ok I get what you are saying now....I still think its wrong.  I have to admit I dont know how a cartesian thinks, but let me tell you how I think:

This problem stems from biblical times and is almost as old as man himself.  I DO NOT think it will go away.  I DONT think there is a chance for peace.  These two neighbors will NEVER live in harmony EXCEPT for a certain 7 year period....(but I wont go there right now)

I think Isreal should build a wall...make it big....and add a buffer zone.  Keep out the suicide bombers and continue to rip apart their leadership.  Doing nothing will only lead to defeat.  Allowing harmony and cohabitiation will lead to a dismantlement of an Israli state.  I'm not a warmonger by anymeans but I am also not a pascifist.  I sit at my home comfortable knowing that the chances of a teenager walking up to my family and blowing himself up is pretty negligable.  BUT, its bound to start here in the states if it is proven that it works elsewere.  To counter act this I think the forces that be must make a STRONG but measured response.  

There is no apeasing these people....you give them territory and they give you C4 Backpack filled with carpenters nails.

anyways that's my view of the whole situation.

[ravells]

Well, Cartesian thought refers to Rene Descartes, who was a philsopher and mathematician. He lived in, I think the 1700s.  He was a pretty amazing character, coined the phrase: 'ergo cognito sum' (I think that's right) - which means 'I think therefore I am'.  The idea being that if you are sentient, you recognise your own existence and that proves reality (or something like that).

As a mathematatian, he was responsible for discovering the coordinate system, (which we use to plot graphs) so when I say, you have a Cartesian point of view, it means you see things in a rational, mathematical, black and white way. For example: My friend's enemy is my [edit] not friend, enemy [edit]. True in a Cartesian sense, but not always in real life.

Moving on to the second part of your post...if you think that there is no hope of peace and that we should all throw our hands up and give up...that's not satisfactory to me.  I think there is a hope for peace. We've done it in other situations we can do it here. It may take courage, work, blood and effort but I think it can be done. The Israelis and Palestinians can do it by building bridges (I've suggested a couple of ways in which this can be done) we, on the rest of the planet can help by not demonising one side or the other.

Most people are just the same. Their needs are pretty simple.  They need shelter, electricity, food and water. They want to bring up a family, have a shot at getting a good job if they work hard and then maybe after that, aspire to some sort of 'Dallas' lifestyle.

Ravs

[Gnslngr]

Thanks for the info on cartisian.  YUP i'm a pretty black and white guy....

I didnt say give up I just dont see peace happening so we live with the current situation.

Actually (and I didnt want to get into this but I feel compelled to)  I beleive  (deep breath...ok here goes...please no aluminum beanie link posts) that isreal will find its peace.  A peace accord will be signed for 7 years with them by the world community/UN or what ever it is called at that time.  That's about as much as I want to rant on that.  There will be fighting there for years to come and other countrys will attempt to invade isreal a few more times but will fail.  I dont think untill that accord is signed that there is any chance for peace.  When it does happen I hope i'm not on this earth to see it.  I could go on but I really dont feel like preaching right now.