Author Topic: Plane Icons (Read 770 times)

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #30 on:** January 06, 2000, 07:16:00 AM »

The icons are not realistic. Unfortunately, their realistic merits are heavily outweighed by those of a limited graphics engine. As Hangtime stated above, and as anyone that has worked at an airport knows, aircraft are identifiable at much greater ranges than current computer graphics allow. Icons are necessary to help bridge the gap.

I'm all for playing with the range the icons turn on/off... but they are necessary to the point that having something similar to Warbird's HA would not be practical.

AKDejaVu

hblair · « **Reply #31 on:** January 06, 2000, 09:22:00 AM »

You are right vermillon, from a business standpoint, you could say the HA in WB is a failure compared to the MA. But as far as whether or not they "work" as far as playability, I think they do work. The reduced icons also tend to keep out the icon dependant "pilots".

I really wished I wasn't so alone in feeling this way. To me, wondering "is that far off dot friend or foe?, going or coming?" is half the fun. Identifying the bandit first, before he sees me, not the 300 ft. tall neon sign above my plane.

At this stage of development, the planes in Aces High are harder to ID at distance than in WB's, but I'm sure this will be improved on.

I would like to see the development of a HA sometime in the future of Aces High for weirdos like me.

Westy · « **Reply #32 on:** January 06, 2000, 09:51:00 AM »

True Hblair.
The other night however I hit [ALT}
one too many times and lost my icons.
I though awesome! I'd happened to fley FAII a while back to see what that sim was like and soem arena bug struck and I lost all icons. I thought (and still do to a certain extent) that losing icons could work.
But the othere night in AH I went from is that a friendly or foe, coming or going to is that a con at all?
We have a ways to go with the graphics in AH (I hope they'll get better for visibility at greater than 500) before we could toss icons.
Of course maybe if I had tried to zoom (I do not use zoom and there fore it did not come to mind at the time) in to see what the icon wa it would have been better.
Then again a 21" monitor with a dpi of about .25 or less would help me too

-Westy

BBGunn · « **Reply #33 on:** January 06, 2000, 05:23:00 PM »

According to what I've read about Simguild's Battle of Britain they use only the player's handle icon which fades out as you get closer. You have to ID the AC by its markings (black crosses etc.). BOB , has a magnification view, however, which makes the ID process easier. If icons must stay, I would rather see them fade out at 500 yards.
The only other alternative I can think of would be solid bright colors on wings, cowl and tail section to indicate country of origin.

NineZ · « **Reply #34 on:** January 06, 2000, 05:50:00 PM »

How about a historical real arena that those of us who like the full real settings could fly in. No tags whatsoever and limited radar capability. In addition, a special scoring section denoting kills within that arena.

I have played in several other combat sims which allow this feature and it is a challenge. Target recognition in addition to closure and ranging decisions make for some "real" fun.

No colored text to lead during a deflection shot, makes it a whole different ball game.

JagdNine

Downtown · « **Reply #35 on:** January 06, 2000, 06:57:00 PM »

I would say, give me a freindly Icons at about 2.5k and No Enemy Icons.

In regards to a C-47 how about having the Icons only on when you can be painted by a radar, so if you are below 300Ft, NO Icon.

I am using 1024X768 32bit and think the Icons are HUGE!!!!

I thought HT was gonna play with the icons, I wish he would start, and provide some of the info to us.

If all the enemies are RED and the Friendlies green, all I would like is a Red Trace or OUtline for Enemies, or Green trace or outline for friendlies, and perhaps the Friendlies Handle Below their aircraft.

I also think Icons should turn off when you are in the clouds.

Range indicators could come on say at 1.5K, I don't think anyone shoots beyond 1K anyhow so No point in having Range icons beyond 1.5K

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Very Opinionated Person.

Westy · « **Reply #36 on:** January 07, 2000, 08:12:00 AM »

Maybe I'm slow (not open to debate) but Downtown's idea of ICONS for "friendly only" is GREAT! Sorry if it's been said before but that is exactly one great way of making a compromise between PC's and the need for IDing aricraft.

and even then, dim the icons down because 1024X768 and 16bit they are billboardish.
Perhaps allow the users front end to select size and/or font for icons?

-Westy

Minotaur · « **Reply #37 on:** January 07, 2000, 09:46:00 AM »

The ICON debate (A never ending one) rages on!

IMO there is No Way that you can get rid of ICONS altogether and still have a product (with current technology) that is profitable. A game that is not profitable will not be around long, or it will be modified to be profitable.

How else can you put a playes name, above a plane and have it readable? It has to be big. I like seeing my co-players names and the type of the plane that I am up against.

At 700yds, the only planes I can make out are the B-17 or the C-47. For the others, I can only distinguish there plane type by its camoflage coloring. A bigger monitor will not solve this problem.

Often I use the ICON as a target to lead my shots. I am sure other people do as well. I am more into "Having Fun", not "Puritan Realism". I have more fun when I can see what I am shooting at, even if it is a big flag out in front of my target. This game is about ACM, not about realism. The game is already difficult enough.

The next complaints will be:

- The ICON ranges are too short

- There is too much low level furbal, because so many players are "stealthing" under DAR.

- Can't read the ICON, make them bigger

- The ICON patterns and colors suck

- How can I fight a plane that I have no clue what it is until I am 500yds away from it, because all I can see is a BLACK DOT or a BLACK CROSS

- This game caters to only the elite, and it is too hard for me

I would like the icon rangs shortened in general, but not excessively so. For planes flying under DAR I would like the ICON range shortened considerably. Make the ICONS a little smaller, about the size of 8 - 10dpi text. Otherwise, leave the ICONS alone. They do not detract from my enjoyment.

Mino

Vermillion · « **Reply #38 on:** January 07, 2000, 10:41:00 AM »

Quote

I would like the icon rangs shortened in general, but not excessively so. For planes flying under DAR I would like the ICON range shortened considerably. Make the ICONS a little smaller, about the size of 8 - 10dpi text. Otherwise, leave the ICONS alone. They do not detract from my enjoyment.

Here here <golf claps>

My feelings exactly!! Especially the "under DAR" portion.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires

"

MarkVZ · « **Reply #39 on:** January 07, 2000, 01:37:00 PM »

Quote

How can I fight a plane that I have no clue what it is until I am 500yds away from it, because all I can see is a BLACK DOT or a BLACK CROSS

Well they seemed to get along fine in WWII without billboard icons.

I LOVE the idea of friendly icons only, but I'm not sure many people would go for it. Reduced range for icons is all I can hope for I guess.

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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group

Minotaur · « **Reply #40 on:** January 07, 2000, 02:22:00 PM »

Mark;

Quote

Well they seemed to get along fine in WWII without billboard icons.

Honestly, the only paralelism that I can distingish between this game and WWII air combat, is that the names of the planes, the weapons, and the manuvers they preformed are the same.

This would be wether or not, the plane graphics had ICONS over them. It just seems, "More Fun", to me for a game to have distance ICONS.

Quote

How can I fight a plane that I have no clue what it is until I am 500yds away from it, because all I can see is a BLACK DOT or a BLACK CROSS

It would seem a reasonble bet, that real WWII pilots would not be able to get along fine if the AH plane graphics with no ICONS, was "In Fact" all they had available to them for visual cues.

Real planes have things like altimeters. It can be difficult just to tell even, for something so big, how far away the earth is.

I certainly agree the ICONS are too large. I'll just wait this one out.

BTW, thanks for letting me fly in with your squad. Much fun!

Good Luck to you in your ICON efforts.

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-07-2000).]

kjb · « **Reply #41 on:** January 07, 2000, 06:59:00 PM »

I'm with Minotaur on this one, butt i'll go one step further. For those of you that don't like the icons just shut up and turn them off. End of debate. Once you see an enemy plane turn off the icons and have at it. Leave the rest of us alone.
kjb

MarkVZ · « **Reply #42 on:** January 07, 2000, 07:10:00 PM »

Quote

For those of you that don't like the icons just shut up and turn them off.

Why would we put ourselves at a disatvantage by turning our icons off while everybody else still has them?
I was hoping my simple idea wouldn't attract any flames but I guess I was wrong.

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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group

kjb · « **Reply #43 on:** January 08, 2000, 12:30:00 AM »

Mark, it wasn't meant as a flame. Sorry you took it that way. Just saying if any one doesn't want the icons, turn them off. Butt don't let the minorities views, sway a great game in the wrong direction. I keep hearing "that's not realistic" or some other cry for reality. Guess what? this isn't WWII, we don't really die, a computer monitor does not resemble looking out of a cockpit in any way, you cannot get the same view from a monitor that the pilots in WWII had. So if you want reality it aint gonna happen. The only similarity between us and WWII pilots is that we both breath air. If HT decided to make the game as close to reality as they can there would be plenty of whining about gun jams, flat tires, lousy maintanence, and hundreds of other things. I agree something needs to be done with the current icon system butt removing them isn't the answer for most of us. I tried turning off the icons a few times, do ya know what? it was a disaster. My eyes just cannot see clearly enough on my big

15" monitor to not have some form of help from icons. Again i do not like the current icon system. There has been many great ideas to help solve the problem. So let's let HT decide what they want. Sorry this was such a long post, but i get so tired of hearing complaints about realism. Compared to brand AW, this sim is totally awesome, no wait, even without comparing this sim to any thing, it is GREAT. I'm very thankful for what those folks did in WWII and am sure i've never had nor ever will have what it takes to have been a WWII pilot. That's one reason i enjoy these types of games, to be able to see a very small part of what it was like back then. makes me even more greatful for what they have done for me. HT and company are doing an excellent job with this game, and i look forward to playing it more and more. If it get's too close to reality very few will play. This has all just been my NSHO. Not trying to flame any one just trying to get it off my chest. Mark i'm sorry if i've offended you or any one else, it wasn't intended.

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KJB
aka kjb

hblair · « **Reply #44 on:** January 08, 2000, 01:51:00 AM »

I understand that reducing icons scares the holy hell out of people like Minotaur, vermillion, kjb, etc. Please don't panic. I'm sure your neon won't get trashed.

I understand that us so called "purists" are in the minority. All I was inquiring about was a possible Historical Arena in the future. Where Luftwaffe and Royal Air Force planes scrap it out without the long range wussy billboards.

Quote kjb:
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"Compared to brand AW, this sim is totally awesome"
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No offense to you Air Warrior guys, but from what I've heard from guys who came over to WB's from AW, AW was hardly comparable, and I would hope AH would be aiming for an improvement on WB's not AW.

I just read this and it sounds harsh, Oh what the heck I been drankin'

.