Author Topic: Anniversary of Columbine High School shooting (Read 2129 times)

midnight Target · « **Reply #75 on:** April 21, 2004, 06:00:51 PM »

Rip, I'm sure you are a grwat parent, but I have to take issue with one little point.

A parent is NOT your best friend, (in the traditional sense.. pal). He/she is a parent and as a parent needs to train, teach, raise with the best interests of the child at heart. I constantly tell and told my kids when they were unruley teens. "I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."

Sixpence · « **Reply #76 on:** April 21, 2004, 06:06:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
"I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."

And I love you.

Sandman · « **Reply #77 on:** April 21, 2004, 06:55:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
A parent is NOT your best friend, (in the traditional sense.. pal). He/she is a parent and as a parent needs to train, teach, raise with the best interests of the child at heart. I constantly tell and told my kids when they were unruley teens. "I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."

You forgot the rest.

"... and ultimately, you will leave my house. Bet on it."

Ripsnort · « **Reply #78 on:** April 21, 2004, 06:59:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
Rip, I'm sure you are a grwat parent, but I have to take issue with one little point.

A parent is NOT your best friend, (in the traditional sense.. pal). He/she is a parent and as a parent needs to train, teach, raise with the best interests of the child at heart. I constantly tell and told my kids when they were unruley teens. "I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."

Thats sad. My father was my best friend, all through out my life and today...had it not been for divorce, I'd have probably made it through my teens without being unruly.

..when they were unruley teens

I'm assuming you were either divorced or the kids were not your own, or they had a step mother?

Unruly teens and divorce make excellent bedfellows. Being their best friend can cure that, even through hardships like divorce...it certainly saved my a-s-s.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #79 on:** April 21, 2004, 07:15:12 PM »

Laz
This is the same gofaster that does not think people should be able to drink.

He does not care about peoples rights, he knows better.

gofaster · « **Reply #80 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:12:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
gofaster... i guess I am missing the point then.. if all the data shows that "ordinary citizens" who have concealed carry permits are among the most law abiding and safest people in the world then how do you justify not allowing them to carry?

perhaps you have some data that shows how dangerous it is to allow concealed carry? if you do then handgun control ink... aka the brady bunch and finestein would love to see it as they are even more rabid than yu are but even they aren't dumb enough to suggest what you just did.

we really let those kids down at columbine... just one teacher who could do more than run away might have saved a lot of lives.

thank you for reminding us of how silly we were.

perhaps you would like to explain how airline pilots and sky marshals are killing people too now?

lazs

Airline pilots fly the plane and aren't responsible for teaching the passengers to pass a scholastic aptitude test. Airline pilots aren't responsible for instilling discipline in the cabin. Airline pilots don't have to shepherd children. Airline pilots have an autopilot for in-cockpit "downtime". Airline pilots aren't the only adults in the room.

Sky marshals go through firearms training and a psych evaluation before being issued a weapon.

If you make firearms training and psych evaluations part of the teacher program, (a) you're going to cost the taxpayers money they don't want to spend and (b) you're going to lose a lot of current teachers and potential teachers who don't want to go through "the police academy".

There was one person on that campus who was armed. He was taken out early by the shooters.

If you have a concealed carry permit, chances are you're not an ordinary citizen.

gofaster · « **Reply #81 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:15:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Laz
This is the same gofaster that does not think people should be able to drink.

He does not care about peoples rights, he knows better.

Don't twist my words. I said I wouldn't mind one bit if Prohibition came back, but I'm not going to go out trumpeting for it. I don't drink, my wife doesn't drink, and therefore it would have zero impact on our lives. Its like a leash law for cats. We don't have a cat, so therefore we could care less about it.

lazs2 · « **Reply #82 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:27:59 AM »

go faster... many teachers have concealed carry permits now... Can you name one incident of them going crazy and "losing it" and killing people with the gun they have on them?

One thing tho.. this thread did finally drive you out in the open about your feelings that "ordinary" people shouldn't be able to defend themselves and that rights don't exist... only privilage. You have been hiding it pretty well with a very thin facade of fairness but now you are pretty well expossed. I woulda had more respect if you woulda come straight at it.

teachers could pick up a desk and pummel a kid to death.. they could hit them hard enough to kill em... they could go out to their car and run down a whole slug of em all clustered up... your arguement is not only weak but.... insulting to teachers... I mean... I thought I had a low opinion of teachers! but you... you have em as emotional subhumans... not even in the same class as the rest of us so far as handling anger.

staby... thank you. you should read lott's books if you want the other side (not the medias) of the arguement.. they are extremely well documented and no anti gun nut has ever refuted his data.

lazs

gofaster · « **Reply #83 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:45:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
go faster... many teachers have concealed carry permits now... Can you name one incident of them going crazy and "losing it" and killing people with the gun they have on them?

One thing tho.. this thread did finally drive you out in the open about your feelings that "ordinary" people shouldn't be able to defend themselves and that rights don't exist... only privilage.

Where did I say that? I said teachers shouldn't be allowed to carry firearms in a classroom. If you have to pass a background check, or attend a training class, or need anything stricter than having a driver's license and voter registration card, then you're no longer an ordinary citizen because you just went through another level of testing for competence. In short, if you're trained with a weapon, you're not ordinary.

Are you suggesting that we should do away with the concealed weapon permit requirements, which include a successful completion of a firearms safety class, so that ordinary citizens could carry? If you wanted ordinary citizens to pack heat, then the only requirement would be a voter registration card.

If we allowed teachers to carry concealed weapons, would that really make our schools any safer than if we installed metal detectors and stationed more trained police officers as "school resource officers"? I haven't attended an NRA firearms safety course, but I suspect that it doesn't address an urban warfare environment, which is what the police officer at Columbine had on his hands.

And another thing about teachers: if you've ever worked in a classroom, you'd know that even the most stable personalities are capable of losing their heads. Teaching is one of the most stressful occupations ever created, right up there with ATC, fire and police.

Vermillion · « **Reply #84 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:55:36 AM »

Don't mind Gofaster... he might be a raging liberal, but he's a nice guy !

Quote

If you have a concealed carry permit, chances are you're not an ordinary citizen

Very VERY untrue. In over 30 states now (I'm sure the NRA website will have a list), there are laws called the "right to carry" laws. Basically, the law says that if you are of sound mind, and have no criminal background (ie no felonies), pass a basic handgun safety class, the state is required to issue you a concealed carry license if it is requested.

The handgun safety classes usually are about 4-6 hours in length, and have not shooting requirements and no test to pass at the end.

In these states its quite easy to get a concealed carry permit, and you would be suprised to know how common they are amongst the populace.

Its only in states like California, New York, New Jersey, and a few others where it takes considerable effort, money, and usually some political connections to get a permit.

In fact Gofaster, I believe that Florida is a right to carry state.

Edit: Back to the original subject. Enough of the blame game. The people responsible for the Columbine shootings, are the shooters themselves. Its ridiculous anymore how its "the computer games", "violence on tv", "they just weren't cuddled enough as babies..." Bull and Shiete. Too many people today never learned what personal responbility means.

lazs2 · « **Reply #85 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:56:47 AM »

gofaster... where have I suggested that the teachers should simply grab a gun and go to class with no training at all?

I said concealed carry and that is what I meant. You yourself admit that expensive police in the school is working... if students didn't know if teachers were armed or not it would have the same effect... the effect that has been proven over and over.

what bothers me is that you seem to be wanting both sides to these anti gun threads that you bring up but that you don't really... you have your mind made up and seem to get angry when your "feelings" about firearms rights are refuted with fact. you appeal to everyones emotions when you are cornered... I expect you to fall back on "do it for the children" or "if it will just save one life..." any minute.

I give you the stats... the facts.. and you give me your "feelings"

all liberal tactict that i find distasteful.

lazs

gofaster · « **Reply #86 on:** April 22, 2004, 09:01:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
Basically, the law says that if you are of sound mind, and have no criminal background (ie no felonies), pass a basic handgun safety class, the state is required to issue you a concealed carry license if it is requested.

The handgun safety classes usually are about 4-6 hours in length, and have not shooting requirements and no test to pass at the end.

Correct. They require a signed certificate that you successfully completed the NRA (or equivalent) firearms course, which means you went through training, which means you know how to handle a gun, which means you went through training most people haven't had, which means you're no longer an ordinary citizen.

You forgot to mention the "no restraining order" requirement.

So, I'm still against ordinary citizens having a concealed carry permit, because ordinary citizens don't know how to handle a gun. Even if a teacher has a concealed carry permit, I wouldn't want that teacher packing heat at school because that teacher isn't trained in urban warfare.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #87 on:** April 22, 2004, 09:02:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
Edit: Back to the original subject. Enough of the blame game. The people responsible for the Columbine shootings, are the shooters themselves. Its ridiculous anymore how its "the computer games", "violence on tv", "they just weren't cuddled enough as babies..." Bull and Shiete. Too many people today never learned what personal responbility means.

I believe it can be a combination of factors, environmental, parental, and biological. I mean, if they hadn't been introduced to "Doom" and maybe "Shag the Sheep", it may have been innocent farm animals that were slaughtered...( Okay, a bit out there, but you get my point..kids are impressionable)

gofaster · « **Reply #88 on:** April 22, 2004, 09:07:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I said concealed carry and that is what I meant. You yourself admit that expensive police in the school is working... if students didn't know if teachers were armed or not it would have the same effect... the effect that has been proven over and over.

Does concealed carry include training in urban warfare? Apparently not. If not, then concealed carry requiremenst fall woefully short of being sufficient for insuring that the teachers carrying the concealed weapons will be able to use those weapons responsibly and won't add to the risk inherent in allowing firearms to be discharged in an urban environment.

So my point remains: I don't want teachers to carry guns in the classroom. Today's standards aren't sufficient to permit it.

lazs2 · « **Reply #89 on:** April 22, 2004, 09:11:17 AM »

"urban warfare"??? what the hell do you know about urban warfare... sheesh. Are you saying that none of the concealed carry permit holders should carry concealed... in public? or, are we back to your low opinion of teachers compared to ordinary people and cops.

The times guns were used by ordinary people in school shootings.... things got better fast... in columbine where no one but the bad guys had guns... things just got worse and worse.

What you are saying is that letting the kids die is preferable to the slaughter that concealed carry permitg holders wreak even tho.... they all carry (by the millons) in "Urban" situations daily and they are proven to not only cause no problems but to solve them.

Why would you sacrafice kids to your ideals? especially when it is so obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about?

also.. the idea isn't to have a shootout. it is to prevent shootings... if the cowardly little darlings think they will encounter aremed resitance they will be deterred... that is a fact and the way having cops in school works. that is the way that crime drops in concealed carry states.

you don't know anything about guns or urban warfare or anything... you are grasping at straws.. you can provide no proof for any of the doom you spout and cannot refute any of the REAL data that proves you are full of it.

lazs