Author Topic: Discipline (Read 2009 times)

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #75 on:** May 05, 2004, 04:49:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
Yoink.

"Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also Known as: Appeal to the Old, Old Ways are Best, Fallacious Appeal to the Past, Appeal to Age

Description of Appeal to Tradition

Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html

Wrong fallacy, I think it's this one: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #76 on:** May 05, 2004, 04:52:53 PM »

I like the pushups idea, whoever posted that one.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #77 on:** May 05, 2004, 04:54:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by FUNKED1
I like the pushups idea, whoever posted that one.

LOL, try getting a 2 yr old to do push ups, and watch them giggle.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #78 on:** May 05, 2004, 05:28:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Obviously we disagree here, and I certainly disagree with "simple approach"...kids tend to understand simple approaches, why complicate things for a mind still developing. If X happens, Y will happen, if X continues to happen, Z will happen. K.I.S.S.

Here we agree...it does not HAVE to include, but where we differ in opinion is that I believe it should be used as a last resort when all else fails, if not, then you have "an Austin" like my original post displayed.

Neither of us is wrong or right, we each have a different approach to it. And, I might add, try having two sons, girls are easy compared to boys for behaviorial problems at a young age.

Rip,

“Simple” was part of “primal, instinctive and simple”. Combined with these other two words the implication is that the parent is resorting to primitive behavior instead of thinking the problem through.

Girls tend to have their own issues, and most importantly, every child is different. My 2 year old is a hundred times more defiant than her big sister (just now she got out of her booster chair and sat on her unfinished dinner; she was then sent to time out without dessert). I do have boys, (about 240 of them, ages 5 to 14) and have a very good idea what they are like. I discipline both boys and girls five days a week.

You say that you only spank as a last resort, when all else fails. I can’t believe that you have tried EVERYTHING. You indicated that discipline for little ones needs to be immediate. When you resort to spanking, do you do so immediately? If so, it sounds as if you didn’t really take the time to try everything else.

eskimo

Ripsnort · « **Reply #79 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:00:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by eskimo2
Rip,

“Simple” was part of “primal, instinctive and simple”. Combined with these other two words the implication is that the parent is resorting to primitive behavior instead of thinking the problem through.

Girls tend to have their own issues, and most importantly, every child is different. My 2 year old is a hundred times more defiant than her big sister (just now she got out of her booster chair and sat on her unfinished dinner; she was then sent to time out without dessert). I do have boys, (about 240 of them, ages 5 to 14) and have a very good idea what they are like. I discipline both boys and girls five days a week.

You say that you only spank as a last resort, when all else fails. I can’t believe that you have tried EVERYTHING. You indicated that discipline for little ones needs to be immediate. When you resort to spanking, do you do so immediately? If so, it sounds as if you didn’t really take the time to try everything else.

eskimo

Well, all I can say is the results speak for themselves. My 2nd grader is doing late-term 3rd grade math, only one other child in his 2nd grade class is doing this. He's had all "3" on his report cards since kindergarten (measured "1, 2 and 3" for performance)

My pre-schooler read at age 5, alone with no parental help (I love flash cards!). No other kids are doing this in his class, mom and dad must read to them. The school nurse called me 3 weeks ago to let us know that my 2nd grader was coming home with a cut on his cheek, told me the low down of what happened. 5 min later she called back and said "your son is the most respectful, polite child I've ever met in 20 years of being a school nurse! I just had to tell you!"

So, in essence, yeah, couple spanks now and then isn't going to hurt them, and the positive reinforcement along with spending maximum time with them lessens the chances of of having to resort to negative punishment.

Did I tell you the oldest son has hit 10 home runs and has a .889 batting avg. after 8 games so far this season? Proud father. We've taught them respect, we've taught them patience, and we've taught them to be polite. When they got out of hand, they knew what the consequences were, and those times they got out of hand were few and in between because no one likes a spanking.

On the other hand, Austin (just one example) who's rarely disciplined, never spanked, is doing poorly in school, is a bully, constantly in trouble, worse player on our baseball team, and is reading kindergarten level as a 2nd grader. Thats just one of the examples of poor parenting, lack of negative punishment I could give you.

And, girls are a breeze at this age, I envy you.

(The neighbors have 2 girls identical ages as my sons...)

Sandman · « **Reply #80 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:14:27 PM »

Wait until they are teenagers.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #81 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:19:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sandman
Wait until they are teenagers.

I understand. Just saying at this age, girls are easier. Thats a fact.

Sandman · « **Reply #82 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:30:22 PM »

At that age, they are all easier. Trust me.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #83 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:37:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sandman
At that age, they are all easier. Trust me.

Interesting you should say that..my wife took our boys over to a friends house who has 2 girls, a year older than each of our children. After 2 hours, my wife said of her friend that "She looked shell-shocked, she asked if boys are normally that highly charged, and the fact that she now appreciates anyone with male children..."

Yep, boys are different. Definately.

texace · « **Reply #84 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:35:58 PM »

Eh, what can I say. I'm not perfect...my views differ, obviously.

But from what I've seen and dealt with, childer who are not punished or "get off light" never learn anything. They accosiate bad things with such hock has "time-out" or "loss of priviledge" for some time. After they get it back, where's the lesson? It's in there, but it takes so much more time to drill it into a kid's head.

I grew up in the 80's and early 90's...back when it was ok to spank your children. Maybe it's that reason I think that this soft punishment stuff is weak and petty.

Eh, it's just me.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #85 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:36:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Well, all I can say is the results speak for themselves. My 2nd grader is doing late-term 3rd grade math, only one other child in his 2nd grade class is doing this. He's had all "3" on his report cards since kindergarten (measured "1, 2 and 3" for performance)

My pre-schooler read at age 5, alone with no parental help (I love flash cards!). No other kids are doing this in his class, mom and dad must read to them. The school nurse called me 3 weeks ago to let us know that my 2nd grader was coming home with a cut on his cheek, told me the low down of what happened. 5 min later she called back and said "your son is the most respectful, polite child I've ever met in 20 years of being a school nurse! I just had to tell you!"

So, in essence, yeah, couple spanks now and then isn't going to hurt them, and the positive reinforcement along with spending maximum time with them lessens the chances of of having to resort to negative punishment.

Did I tell you the oldest son has hit 10 home runs and has a .889 batting avg. after 8 games so far this season? Proud father. We've taught them respect, we've taught them patience, and we've taught them to be polite. When they got out of hand, they knew what the consequences were, and those times they got out of hand were few and in between because no one likes a spanking.

On the other hand, Austin (just one example) who's rarely disciplined, never spanked, is doing poorly in school, is a bully, constantly in trouble, worse player on our baseball team, and is reading kindergarten level as a 2nd grader. Thats just one of the examples of poor parenting, lack of negative punishment I could give you.

And, girls are a breeze at this age, I envy you. (The neighbors have 2 girls identical ages as my sons...)

So your kids are "superkids" because their parents spank them? How do you know that it's the spanking that makes them so great? My guess it's because their dad has a carpeted garage. I bet Austin's dad doesn't have a carpeted garage... That's got to be it! Perhaps you should tell Austins dad to carpet his garage too.

eskimo

eskimo

Tumor · « **Reply #86 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:37:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
There are some valid cases, but not as many as teachers WANT you to believe there are...usually it means the teacher is not willing to work harder with the kids, and/or the kid suffers from disciplinary problems (lack of) at home. I'm sure Austin (my subject I used in my original post) would have been diagnosed with ADHD had he been in a larger, inner city school. Luckily, we have small classrooms out in the 'Burbs, and the teachers are more than willing to work with kids like Austin alittle harder.

I don't know what the hell was wrong with my kid, which Ritalin had a major positive effect on... but if it wasn't ADHD, I would have turned to an exorcist.

....and I'm a firm believer in corporal punishment (distributed by parents and parents only).

Tumor

texace · « **Reply #87 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:38:41 PM »

You sound like my dad, Rip.

Hornet · « **Reply #88 on:** May 05, 2004, 09:13:42 PM »

interesting thread..

Ironic how being the polite quiet one gets gold stars in kindergarden but goes unrewarded in the adult world. Especially in America, that competitiveness, that willingness to push boundaries, to go out and compete is what is rewarded.

Since everyone else is junking the empirical study route...my gut says you gotta leave boys a little bit wild...they need to experience success and failure -- and the less it happens in the little-leaguey parent-controlled environments the better. They'll be better off in the end game.

mora · « **Reply #89 on:** May 06, 2004, 02:12:58 AM »

The biggest lesson from my childhood was when I was put on "observation class" for one day after misbehaving in school. Observation class is a class where all the trouble childs are put when everything else has failed, 75% of them turn out criminals and/or junkies. I behaved considerably better afterwards.