P-38l

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Kweassa
The last time I looked this thread started to take heat when people started claiming the P-38L "didn't have any problems" with speedy dives. Or rather, somehow come into the mysterious conclusion of, "well there were problems, but it wasn't on a tactical level".

 So let's not go that LuftWhiner path and make this more unpleasant than it already is. Having to listen to arguments which draws out its entirety on anecdotes alone, and then seeing people get angry because the subjectivity was pointed out, is already very tiring.

Anecdotes alone? Try this chart:


http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/RedLine.html

And while you're at it, try the rest of the article as well.

As far as getting angry, I think it was someone on the Luftwaffe side who called someone on the opposition a LIAR (breaks it down real fast to name calling doesn't it), threatened to report him to the German district attorney to be prosecuted and jailed (if he were in Germany), and threatened to tell Skuzzy he was a bad man, and try to get him banned from the boards. And you want to talk about  someone on the P-38 side of the arguement taking it down the wrong path? Kind of blows your position all to hell doesn't it? Get real.

[HoHun]

Hi Hilts,

>The 8TH AF needed a scapegoat and a whipping boy to excuse their terrible record, the P-38 was a good choice for that role, since it was the ONLY fighter they had that could possibly do the job at all, for a while.

>Further, Doolittle's quote was not only taken out of context, but it was based on reports from people who were not getting the job done, and needed something on which to lay the blame.

It's typical for conspiracy theorists to only accept evidence in favour of their theory, while blaming everything else to lies.

I consider it unlikely that Lt.Col. Daneau had any interest in finding a scapegoat when preparing the historical study in 1996.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Gee Virgil, sounds like those 38 pilots had less training that late war LW pilots. And, they were up against much more qualified (combat) LW pilots at the time.

Virgil did you look at this site? http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p38.html

Well, that statement comes directly from Captain Arthur Heiden. He was there, and was one of the pilots assigned to bring replacements into the squadron. The same was told to me by any number of P-38 pilots from the 8TH AF.

Regarding that thread you posted the link to, the guy claiming to be George Cuelleers (the spelling there is very likely wrong) turned out to be a very well informed fake. While his information was very good, he was not the P-38 ace he claimed to be, as the REAL George Cuelleers (sp?) was at the time nearly completely incapacitated in a nursing home.

While the thread is in fact very good, and much of the information verified as factual, it must be carefully examined, and has been tainted by the fraudulent claim made by the one participant. And that is a shame.

On the other hand, the reports of Robin Olds, James Morris, and John Lowell are indeed true. And verified. With the possible exception of the acceptance of some on the Lowell vs. Galland story.

[HoHun]

Hi Hilts,

>It's a pretty good article written by a very competant pilot and scholar, Dr. Carlo Kopp, with some pretty good sources as well.

Kopp's chart seems to be based on the dive placard posted by F4UDOA, though he misrepresents the 10000 ft value as 480 mph instead of 460 mph, probably because of legibility problems.

Other than that, the chart confirms the low Mach limit of the P-38 I already pointed out.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[HoHun]

Hi Hilts,

>As far as getting angry, I think it was someone on the Luftwaffe side who called someone on the opposition a LIAR (breaks it down real fast to name calling doesn't it), threatened to report him to the German district attorney to be prosecuted and jailed (if he were in Germany), and threatened to tell Skuzzy he was a bad man, and try to get him banned from the boards.

Anyone who cares to read the past posts will see that most of what follows behind your "I think" is untrue.

If you have the guts to repeat the same statement without the "I think", I will report you to the moderation again.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Hilts,

>The 8TH AF needed a scapegoat and a whipping boy to excuse their terrible record, the P-38 was a good choice for that role, since it was the ONLY fighter they had that could possibly do the job at all, for a while.

>Further, Doolittle's quote was not only taken out of context, but it was based on reports from people who were not getting the job done, and needed something on which to lay the blame.

It's typical for conspiracy theorists to only accept evidence in favour of their theory, while blaming everything else to lies.

I consider it unlikely that Lt.Col. Daneau had any interest in finding a scapegoat when preparing the historical study in 1996.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hohun,
I'm going to say this once, say it real clear, and I'm not going to waste time saying it again.

You have called me a liar. You have stated that you would like to be able to turn me in to German authorities and have me jailed.  You have at least threatened to report me to Skuzzy and demand that he take some sort of action against me. You have further stated that I'm am spreading lies. I'm beginning to tire of your words and accusations. I'm also beginning to tire of your juvenile personal attacks. You have a real bad habit of tossing the words lie, lies, and liar around real freely, and accusing others of libel and slander, and it is getting very old. I have no use and no respect for people who act like you. You can take this any way you choose, and you can take it up with Skuzzy if you wish, I do not care. But I have had just about enough of it. You've gone off the deep end once already and launched a viscious tirade against me. I do not care to have anything else to do with you. Clear enough?

[HoHun]

Hi Hilts,

>You have stated that you would like to be able to turn me in to German authorities and have me jailed.  

That very statement is untrue and justifies calling you a liar.

Specifically, I didn't say I would like to be able to turn you to German authorities and have you jailed.

Here's the complete quote:

"Publication of statements with no factual basis (or based on a lie) that are fit to damage someone's reputation are a criminal offence under German law.

If you had posted your stuff on a German board, you'd be eligible for a one-year prison sentence now, and I wouldn't have to turn to the forum moderation because I could go right to the district attorney.

The laws in the US migh be different, but I'm not going to discuss anything with a liar who tries to flame me for statements I never made. That's why I'm going to let the moderation resolve this."

I will rely on the moderation to stop you putting words into my mouth, whatever you think of it.

Kind regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[straffo]

Hey gents !

I know you're both good guys.

So instead of fighting and writing post you will both regret later

Why don't let the dust settle and let you cool down a bit ?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Hilts,

>As far as getting angry, I think it was someone on the Luftwaffe side who called someone on the opposition a LIAR (breaks it down real fast to name calling doesn't it), threatened to report him to the German district attorney to be prosecuted and jailed (if he were in Germany), and threatened to tell Skuzzy he was a bad man, and try to get him banned from the boards.

Anyone who cares to read the past posts will see that most of what follows behind your "I think" is untrue.

If you have the guts to repeat the same statement without the "I think", I will report you to the moderation again.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Report away. I have had enough. I was pretty nice about it the first time. It was YOU who called me a LIAR. There is no THINK about it, it is fact, written in plain English for everyone to see. Your posts are here, and I will repeat them here for all to see.

Here they are again:

Hohun said:

You are a liar, Hilts.

You either come up with a direct, unambigous quote proving your claim, or I'll report the next post where you make an unfounded claim like that to the moderation of this forum, complete with a request to take action against you.

Publication of statements with no factual basis (or based on a lie) that are fit to damage someone's reputation are a criminal offence under German law.

If you had posted your stuff on a German board, you'd be eligible for a one-year prison sentence now, and I wouldn't have to turn to the forum moderation because I could go right to the district attorney.

The laws in the US migh be different, but I'm not going to discuss anything with a liar who tries to flame me for statements I never made. That's why I'm going to let the moderation resolve this.







I think that pretty much says it all, Hohun. I take note that there was no moderation action taken against me the first time, and in fact I was never contacted, never warned, and Skuzzy never posted here. You've been making threats against me here on this board and I'm getting tired of it.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by straffo
Hey gents !

I know you're both good guys.

So instead of fighting and writing post you will both regret later

Why don't let the dust settle and let you cool down a bit ?

I have not posted anything I regret straffo. I have not made any threats, obvious, or veiled. I have not called anyone any names, I have not accused anyone of anything. But I'm getting very tired of Hohun and his tirades and personal attacks. There is no excuse for it and no need. I won't continue to tolerate him accusing me of lying, libel, and slander while he openly calls me names and makes personal attacks on me. He's doing everything to me he accuses me of doing and it is getting old and tiresome. Not to mention out of control.

[straffo]

I used the future Virgil

you will both regret later

It would be better you put each other on ignore, if a fight can be tolerated on O'club here I don't think it can be tolered.



Plus as an external observer I think it plus a problem  of misunderstanding or culture choc than anything.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Hilts,

>You have stated that you would like to be able to turn me in to German authorities and have me jailed.  

That very statement is untrue and justifies calling you a liar.

Specifically, I didn't say I would like to be able to turn you to German authorities and have you jailed.

Here's the complete quote:

"Publication of statements with no factual basis (or based on a lie) that are fit to damage someone's reputation are a criminal offence under German law.

If you had posted your stuff on a German board, you'd be eligible for a one-year prison sentence now, and I wouldn't have to turn to the forum moderation because I could go right to the district attorney.

The laws in the US migh be different, but I'm not going to discuss anything with a liar who tries to flame me for statements I never made. That's why I'm going to let the moderation resolve this."

I will rely on the moderation to stop you putting words into my mouth, whatever you think of it.

Kind regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Yes, Hohun, it says right there in what you and I quoted that :

"I wouldn't have to turn to the forum moderation because I could go right to the district attorney" and "The laws in the US migh be different, but I'm not going to discuss anything with a liar who tries to flame me for statements I never made. That's why I'm going to let the moderation resolve this."

Notice that you say you are going to turn me in to the moderator of the forum because since I'm not in Germany you cannot go to the district attorney. Notice where you called me a liar. At least that is how it reads in English.

As such, you supposedly turned me in to the moderator (you said you did) because you could not turn me into the district attorney (you said you could not because I was not in Germany, but you could if I was), and you called me a liar. That is exactly what I said that you said and did. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by straffo
I used the future Virgil


 

It would be better you put each other on ignore, if a fight can be tolerated on O'club here I don't think it can be tolered.



Plus as an external observer I think it plus a problem  of misunderstanding or culture choc than anything.

I choose my words pretty carefully. I appreciate your concern. It isn't culture shock or a misunderstanding. The word liar written in English is pretty well understood by most cultures and not realy a vague reference.

Thanks again for your concern.

[Skuzzy]

Gentlemen, this thread has beaten the dead horse enough.  When it becomes nothing but personal, and loses all objectivity, it pretty much ceases to be a viable discussion.