Author Topic: P-38l  (Read 4201 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
P-38l
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2004, 07:43:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Delirium
Careful Ack-Ack, those Luftwaffles get real upset when they perceive an insult directed toward Willy or Kurt. They willl then proceed to draw a hidden microfilm from their rectum filled with never before released footage or diagrams.




That's why I decided to pop in.  Nothing funnier than seeing a LUFTWHINER bend over and grab his ankles


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
P-38l
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2004, 07:46:52 PM »
Running out of arguments are we? :D
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Memories
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2004, 07:49:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Guppy,

>Lowell mentions two lost 38s at the spot where he had the fight.  The latest mission I can find for the 364th where they lost 2 38s is June 27, 1944.

Well, you can guess the date in an attempt to match the description, but it would be much safer to take the date from a log book and then check the rest of the information.

Without that information, we can guess, but I don't consider a post-D-Day date likely as Galland was completely tied up in staff work for quite a while after that.

>At this point you said it simply wasn't true as D9s weren't operational and it must have been mistaken identity.

To be precise, I checked a complete list of prototypes and couldn't find any armed aircraft that would have been available for fighting Lowell on the date in question. Much less an entire flight.

>Might as well continue from where we left off, instead of rehashing it from the beginning right? :)

We might give it an even better start than last time if we really got a definite date from the log book :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


The logbook would be nice, but since I don't have access to Lowell's or Galland's, that makes it a bit tough :)

We'll have to play detective the best we can.  Since Galland clearly had the conversation with Lowell at the Fighter Aces convention, something must have clicked.

SO!  Is it possible that Lowell in a 38 in late June-July 44, ran into Galland in a 190D9?

Anecdotal accounts state that Allied pilots encountered "long nosed 190s" in early June 1944.  If that is true, it is possible then that the fight took place.  But if no "long noses' were being flown yet, then it makes it more suspect.

As a side note, in the book "JV44-The Galland Circus" Galland is noted as spending 'several days with units in the West" during late June 1944.  It doesn't say specifically he flew, but he comments on morale, conditions etc that he saw while with them.

It does at least open the door to him having flown with them during that time frame.

When did D9s first become operational?  Seems like I saw it mentioned as early 44 with JG "Udet" when RAF fighters first reported seeing 'long noses"?

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
P-38l
« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2004, 07:54:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun


... Doolittle noted, “The P-38 was a second-rate fighter when compared to the P-47 and P-51.”'

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)



Taking in account the P-38's war record in other theaters, Doolittle was wrong.  90% of the USAAC aces in the PTO/CBO were P-38 pilots with the P-47 and P-51 dragging up the rear behind the P-40.  


ack-ack
« Last Edit: May 06, 2004, 07:57:04 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
P-38l
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2004, 07:57:29 PM »
Yeah, but how many P-47s and P-51s served in the PTO, and for how long?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
P-38l
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2004, 08:34:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Yeah, but how many P-47s and P-51s served in the PTO, and for how long?


For what it's worth in the MTO the highest scoring fighter group was the 31st which flew Spits then 51s.  They claimed 571 kills in the air.

Second was the 82nd FG that flew 38s exclusively with 554 air to air claims.

The 31st had been in combat longer.

It passed the 82nd in kills on March 31, 1945 not long before the end of the war.

So the 82nd had been leading scorer for the majority of their time in the MTO, over two years.

A bit of additional MTO info.

325th FG was third with 540 claims.  They were Jugs and 51s.

1st FG in 38s had 440 claims

52nd FG in 51s had 425 claims.

Draw your own conclusions.


Dan/Slack
« Last Edit: May 06, 2004, 08:50:20 PM by Guppy35 »
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6134
P-38l
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2004, 08:37:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

Draw your own conclusions.


Dan/Slack


They already have, believe me, they already have.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
P-38l
« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2004, 05:15:40 AM »
I belive Doolitle's quote was taken out of context. His job was High-alt escorts in the ETO, and his remark must be refered to that.

MTO/PTO was a different story and the stories/statistics show.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
P-38l
« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2004, 05:21:04 AM »
Hi Ack-ack,

>Taking in account the P-38's war record in other theaters, Doolittle was wrong.  90% of the USAAC aces in the PTO/CBO were P-38 pilots with the P-47 and P-51 dragging up the rear behind the P-40.  

If you had give Doolittle Japanese fighters for the 8th Air Force, he'd probably have considered them "third rate". Looking at relative performance and flight characteristics - even the "second rate" P-38 compares favourably to them.

And the Allied strategy was "Europe first", so it's telling that the P-38 dominated the Pacific.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Memories
« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2004, 05:33:37 AM »
Hi Guppy,

>The logbook would be nice, but since I don't have access to Lowell's or Galland's, that makes it a bit tough

Well, Hilts commented on 05-06-2004 10:34 PM as follows:

"Well, the story of the fight between Galland and Lowell was originally told in the eighties, so they weren't that old. The story as printed in Joe Foss' book Top Gun was told at Maxwell AFB at a Gathering of Eagles reunion of fighter pilots. The guys in question, the majority of them anyway, were in their sixties and still very sharp.

[...]

While memory is never perfect, and at times a little shaded, it is not by any means completely irrelevant, especially when log books and other documentation is available to back them up."

Does that sound like he's suggesting there is some documentation on the Lowell vs. Galland fight?

>As a side note, in the book "JV44-The Galland Circus" Galland is noted as spending 'several days with units in the West" during late June 1944.  It doesn't say specifically he flew, but he comments on morale, conditions etc that he saw while with them.

>It does at least open the door to him having flown with them during that time frame.

Note that "the West" refers to the invasion front, not the Reichsverteidigung, which Lowell would have met over Germany. That information does indeed make the suggested date more unlikely.

>When did D9s first become operational?  Seems like I saw it mentioned as early 44 with JG "Udet" when RAF fighters first reported seeing 'long noses"?

About September 1944.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
P-38l
« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2004, 05:54:45 AM »
Quote
Careful Ack-Ack, those Luftwaffles get real upset when they perceive an insult directed toward Willy or Kurt. They willl then proceed to draw a hidden microfilm from their rectum filled with never before released footage or diagrams.


 The last time I looked this thread started to take heat when people started claiming the P-38L "didn't have any problems" with speedy dives. Or rather, somehow come into the mysterious conclusion of, "well there were problems, but it wasn't on a tactical level".

 So let's not go that LuftWhiner path and make this more unpleasant than it already is. Having to listen to arguments which draws out its entirety on anecdotes alone, and then seeing people get angry because the subjectivity was pointed out, is already very tiring.

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6865
P-38l
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2004, 06:01:07 AM »
Quote
>As a side note, in the book "JV44-The Galland Circus" Galland is noted as spending 'several days with units in the West" during late June 1944. It doesn't say specifically he flew, but he comments on morale, conditions etc that he saw while with them.

>It does at least open the door to him having flown with them during that time frame.

Note that "the West" refers to the invasion front, not the Reichsverteidigung, which Lowell would have met over Germany. That information does indeed make the suggested date more unlikely.

>When did D9s first become operational? Seems like I saw it mentioned as early 44 with JG "Udet" when RAF fighters first reported seeing 'long noses"?

About September 1944.


At the time of JV44's formation there was not really any Reichsverteidigung as the 'West Front' had become the Reichsverteidigung. Sounds like a reference to the Western Allies only.


The first Doras began coming off the production line at Cottbus in Aug 1944. The Doras of III./JG54 (the 1st to convert) becoming operational in Oct 1944.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6134
P-38l
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2004, 07:10:04 AM »
To the best of my knowledge, neither Doolittle nor Spatz ever commanded a fighter squadron or a fighter group as an active flying unit level commander. In truth, for the most part, the 8TH AF as a whole had a poor perfromance record in general, and failed to take proper steps to fix any problems they had with ANY plane or equipment for a very long time. The 8TH AF needed a scapegoat and a whipping boy to excuse their terrible record, the P-38 was a good choice for that role, since it was the ONLY fighter they had that could possibly do the job at all, for a while.

Further, Doolittle's quote was not only taken out of context, but it was based on reports from people who were not getting the job done, and needed something on which to lay the blame. Too many P-38 pilots in the 8TH AF were having success for the somewhat lackluster performance of the P-38 in the 8TH AF to be the fault of the plane.

When Doolittle decided to go up in a fighter over Normandy himself, he chose a P-38, not a P-51. When you're a General, in COMMAND of the AF, why would you choose what you thought was a third rate plane to fly into an area where it was quite possible you could run into enemy aircraft, especially when you flew alone? Hardly the telling indictment of the P-38 people are looking for.

The P-38 held the line from the time it arrived in 1943 until it was finally surpassed in numbers deployed in mid to late June of 1944. By then, there were plenty of P-51's and the P-47 finally had enough fuel to go the distance. Rather than add new P-38's, which by then were the J-15-Lo models and later, the decision was made to stick with the now more numerous P-51, and cut down on the amount of different maintenace supplies needed, as well as different pilot training, as logistics were still a serious issue for the 8TH AF.

The 8TH AF always lacked in properly trained P-38 pilots, from the time the first two groups arrived and went operational before their theatre indoctrination was finished. Both the 20TH and 55TH FG's had been continually stripped of trained pilots before they were even deployed, those pilots were sent to the MTO and PTO, because the 8TH AF was so inept as to believe that they didn't need or want long range escort fighters, of which there was only one available at the time. The P-38. Upon arriving in Britain, they were both already short of P-38 qualified pilots. The average pilot had less than 25 hours of experience in the P-38. The situation with replacements was far worse. Roughly 80% of the replacement pilots assigned to P-38 groups had NEVER been in a P-38 before, and were in fact barely competant in the P-51. If they could pass a test that included one successful takeoff, one successful landing, and a blindfold test, they were given a plane and sent on their way. Given the differences between the planes it was a recipe for certain disaster. While there was theatre indoctrination and training for P-51 pilots in Britain, no such thing existed for P-38 pilots, at least not until mid 1944 and later.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6134
dive chart, from Lockheed
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2004, 07:18:50 AM »
Available here: http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html

It's a pretty good article written by a very competant pilot and scholar, Dr. Carlo Kopp, with some pretty good sources as well. The charts are on the second page. Evidently you can't post the charts here, for some reason they won't show up.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 07:21:43 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6865
P-38l
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2004, 07:21:48 AM »
Quote
The average pilot had less than 25 hours of experience in the P-38. The situation with replacements was far worse. Roughly 80% of the replacement pilots assigned to P-38 groups had NEVER been in a P-38 before, and were in fact barely competant in the P-51. If they could pass a test that included one successful takeoff, one successful landing, and a blindfold test, they were given a plane and sent on their way. Given the differences between the planes it was a recipe for certain disaster. While there was theatre indoctrination and training for P-51 pilots in Britain, no such thing existed for P-38 pilots, at least not until mid 1944 and later.



Gee Virgil, sounds like those 38 pilots had less training that late war LW pilots. And, they were up against much more qualified (combat) LW pilots at the time.

Virgil did you look at this site? http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 07:28:15 AM by MiloMorai »