Author Topic: P-38l (Read 4245 times)

DiabloTX · « **Reply #45 on:** May 04, 2004, 11:41:15 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
I see now how this could be interpreted as an insult. I did not mean to imply that you are incapable of finding quotes. I meant that it perhaps would be difficult to find quotes from P-38 veterans from that time in the war. My English is sometimes not as good as I'd like it to be. I'm sorry for the ambiguity of my post.

Hey, no problem G-man. Sometimes these things happen on BBS's. When I wrote my post about asking for more quotes I was about 2 mins. from going to bed therefore I wasn't about to do a net search on quotes at that time.

About your English, it's better than 90% of primary English-speaking people on this board.

The question about the 38's capability has always been very interesting to me. I found that book that I remembered and read the chapter before going to sleep. It turns out the author was a WWII 38 pilot that had found if he dialed in some rudder input just BEFORE a turn he could get the plane to roll a bit faster than normal. He also talked about how he could power climb in a turn and 190's couldn't keep up with him. That's where I got my memories crossed about that the 38 could and could not do against the LW iron.

I've also wondered about the 51 in AH when in WWII it seemed from pilots stories it was untouchable. Yet, it has earned a reputation in AH as a "runner" thus the Runstang name. I still haven't figured out why it is like this in the game.

But that is another thread altogether....

GScholz · « **Reply #46 on:** May 04, 2004, 12:10:42 PM »

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Originally posted by DiabloTX
About your English, it's better than 90% of primary English-speaking people on this board.

Thank you.

Quote

Originally posted by DiabloTX
The question about the 38's capability has always been very interesting to me. I found that book that I remembered and read the chapter before going to sleep. It turns out the author was a WWII 38 pilot that had found if he dialed in some rudder input just BEFORE a turn he could get the plane to roll a bit faster than normal. He also talked about how he could power climb in a turn and 190's couldn't keep up with him. That's where I got my memories crossed about that the 38 could and could not do against the LW iron.

The 190's advantage would be roll rate, speed and dive. Climb, zoom and maneuverability would be the 38's advantage. The 109 would hold all advantages except for maneuverability, and about equality in zoom (109 has more power in the climb, but the P-38 has more stability near the top of the zoom climb). In AH the 38 is not as bad in a dive as I'm led to believe from what I've read, so the LW dive advantage (especially against the 109) is less pronounced.

Quote

Originally posted by DiabloTX
I've also wondered about the 51 in AH when in WWII it seemed from pilots stories it was untouchable. Yet, it has earned a reputation in AH as a "runner" thus the Runstang name. I still haven't figured out why it is like this in the game.

Well, the P-51 wasn't untouchable ... quite a lot of them got shot down. However they were great runners, and excellent E fighters. In WWII all but a few pilots would rather live to fight another day than push a bad situation, so most engagements would end up with one side trying to disengage. Just like with the P-38 stories posted in this thread where the 109's would try to get an advantage in altitude and bounce the escorting P-38's. Failing that they would just dive away and run. The P-51's did the same thing to the Germans. So the same qualities that earned the P-51 the "runner" tag in AH, earned the P-51 the "untouchable" tag in WWII ... because they are the same.

hogenbor · « **Reply #47 on:** May 04, 2004, 12:26:01 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
My English is sometimes not as good as I'd like it to be. I'm sorry for the ambiguity of my post.

You are far, FAR too modest GScholz. I'm not a native English speaker myself but people always compliment me on the grasp I have of the language. If you wouldn't have stated it, I never would have guessed. In fact your English is considerably better than some of the Americans who regularly post here. Furthermore, saying that your English is not good enough while simultanously using words like 'ambiguous' is not really convincing

HoHun · « **Reply #48 on:** May 04, 2004, 02:30:22 PM »

Hi Hilts,

>Do it Hohun, run tell your mommy. I'm sure they'll get all bent over it.

Publication of statements with no factual basis (or based on a lie) that are fit to damage someone's reputation are a criminal offence under German law.

If you had posted your stuff on a German board, you'd be eligible for a one-year prison sentence now, and I wouldn't have to turn to the forum moderation because I could go right to the district attorney.

The laws in the US migh be different, but I'm not going to discuss anything with a liar who tries to flame me for statements I never made. That's why I'm going to let the moderation resolve this.

Henning (HoHun)

GScholz · « **Reply #49 on:** May 04, 2004, 04:45:08 PM »

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Originally posted by hogenbor
You are far, FAR too modest GScholz. I'm not a native English speaker myself but people always compliment me on the grasp I have of the language. If you wouldn't have stated it, I never would have guessed. In fact your English is considerably better than some of the Americans who regularly post here. Furthermore, saying that your English is not good enough while simultanously using words like 'ambiguous' is not really convincing

Thank you for the compliment, your English is excellent also.

However, I do occasionally goof-off and write something stupid only to be dumbfounded by the angry replies. Rather embarrassing really ... like this time.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 04, 2004, 05:31:33 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Why don’t you find some quotes? If you can find them (I’m sure you can). The fact still remains that the P-38’s service was unsatisfactory and was largely withdrawn from fighter service in the ETO when the P-51 became available in numbers. Comparing LW losses in Africa (which include bombers, Bf110 Jabo’s and transports) to P-38 losses is meaningless.

Fact is that the P-38 and I dare say ALL other aircraft modelled are “easy mode” compared to real life. The P-38 had some serious vices that are not modelled, and the same goes for the 109, 190, P-51, Spitfire etc. AH is pretty accurate and realistic for a game, but it is still just a game.

Not a fair assessment GScholz. There is enough evidence around that the 'politics'within 8th AF early on had a lot to do with the 38 being shipped to Africa. The bomber guys had something to prove, and had to backpeddle like crazy when the bomber losses got so bad and the need for a long range fighter escort was finally acknowledged.

Certainly the 1st, 14th and 82nd FGs used the 38 well until the end of the war flying out of Italy. The 474th FG 9th AF requested to stay on 38s instead of transitioning to P47s as they preferred them. The 370th FG certainly employed them successfully as well with the 9th AF. I think it would be hard to find fault with the 8th AF groups that used it such as the 20th, 55th and 479th.

I have a copy of the 436th FS, 479th FG wartime history. This would be what was written daily while the war was going on. There are some interesting comments about the transition to the 51 from the 38. One is that the replacement pilots were P51 trained so they didn't have the experience in the 38. Another, and I'll quote it, regards the oldtimers finishing their tours:

"The first pilot to finish his missions this month was Lt. Herman Hoversten, strictly a P38 boy with an intense dislike for the P51 Spam can".

Those who flew it, liked it and often preferred it, even to the 51. But lets face it, you could produce a lot more 51s faster and it was less of a maintenence headache. It made sense to use the 51.

Dig out the histories of the 1st, 14th and 82nd. They don't bash the 38 but employed it very successfully. I talk to a 1st FG 38 pilot on occasion. He is the first to admit the cockpit was way too cold. They'd wrap copies of Yank or other magazines around thier legs to help with the cold. Yet they were more then happy to go up to England to get the 8th AF cast off 38s. And there were definately 51s in the MTO too.

To say it was unsatisfactory in its operations against the LW is unfair and untrue.

Dan/Slack

Silat · « **Reply #51 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:58:45 AM »

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Originally posted by HoHun

If you had posted your stuff on a German board, you'd be eligible for a one-year prison sentence now, and I wouldn't have to turn to the forum moderation because I could go right to the district attorney.

The laws in the US migh be different, but I'm not going to discuss anything with a liar who tries to flame me for statements I never made. That's why I'm going to let the moderation resolve this.

Henning (HoHun)

You are joking right? This is the USA and this thread is nothing that the "moderator" is going to waste his time on. And I highly doubt that anything said in this thread would be touched by a German DA.
If you are going to argue on this board then you will have to get some thicker armor.

Shane · « **Reply #52 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:27:14 AM »

i can't say much about the real thing, but...

in AH you ALLLLLLLL suck no matter what you're in.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #53 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:43:07 AM »

A couple of notes on some of this.

The P-38 was not withdrawn from service against the Luftwaffe. One AF, the 8TH AF, transitioned their units equipped with P-38s to the P-51, but not before mid to late summer of 1944. Everyone knows what condition the Luftwaffe was in by June of 1944. The P-38 outnumbered the P-51 in numbers deployed with the 8TH AF until mid to late April of 1944.

The P-38 was the first Allied fighter to appear in numbers over Berlin. And it turned out to be a fighter sweep mission since every other unit including all of the bombers turned back due to weather.

The introduction of the P-38 as a long range escort immediately cut bomber losses dramatically, despite the fact that the P-38 was flown by units forced to go operational 60 to 90 days ahead of schedule, with no experience, deep in enemy territory, facing numerical disadvantages of up to 20:1. Hardly the indictment of inferiority you portray.

Other Air Forces deployed against the Luftwaffe kept their P-38's, right up until VE day, and used them very successfully against the Luftwaffe.

The fact that the rest of the USAAC in action against the Luftwaffe successfully used the P-38 against the Luftwaffe while the 8TH could not seem to do anything right should tell you something.

The fact that the P-38 had by all accounts a kill:loss ratio against the Luftwaffe of somewhere between 4 and 6 to 1 in combat should speak for itself.

The 1.5:1 statistic includes ALL losses of P-38's compared to enemy planes destroyed in action. For the P-38 that includes all planes lost to accidents, navigation errors, mechanical failures, collisions with friendly aircraft, and any other non combat loss as well as combat losses, while for the Luftwaffe that only includes planes confirmed as shot down by P-38's. Hardly a fair and reasonable comparison is it? Include all of the same losses for the Luftwaffe and see how the numbers stack up. Bet they'll be VERY different.

Even as poorly as the 8TH AF did with the P-38, they did produce a great number of aces in the P-38. And several Luftwaffe top guns were shot down by P-38's. Are we to assume that those P-38 aces were superhuman pilots able to take a plane you say was so totally inferior to anything the Luftwaffe had and become aces with it? Are we to assume that those Luftwaffe top guns were actually so incompetent as to allow themselves to be shot down by what you consider the worst plane in the theatre?

Judging the P-38 by the performance of the 8TH AF while completely ignoring every other AF fighting the Luftwaffe is like judging the Luftwaffe by their action against the Polish air force and ignoring the rest of the Allies. It is a rather poor way to find the truth.

Kweassa · « **Reply #54 on:** May 05, 2004, 09:59:35 AM »

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Even as poorly as the 8TH AF did with the P-38, they did produce a great number of aces in the P-38. And several Luftwaffe top guns were shot down by P-38's. Are we to assume that those P-38 aces were superhuman pilots able to take a plane you say was so totally inferior to anything the Luftwaffe had and become aces with it? Are we to assume that those Luftwaffe top guns were actually so incompetent as to allow themselves to be shot down by what you consider the worst plane in the theatre?

Out of curiosity, to whom is the above statement addressed to? Because I sure don't see anyone claiming the P-38 was the worst fighter in the ETO, nor do I see anyone saying skillful feats are impossible to achieve with a P-38... not to mention none of what you've said ever relates to the previous debate concerning the lacking aspects of the P-38.

Your putting words inside the mouth of a phantom which we cannot see.

AcId · « **Reply #55 on:** May 05, 2004, 01:03:13 PM »

Wow, you folks make quite the soap opera

I should point my Mother to these boards instead of "As the world turns"

GScholz · « **Reply #56 on:** May 05, 2004, 01:19:38 PM »

*Sigh*

Hilts, you know, if you search this forum I'm sure you'll find out that I was like you the first couple of months I was here. Different plane, but same sentiment. Your "version" of the P-38 will never be modelled since HTC model their planes after facts ... not wishful thinking. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll enjoy flying your P-38 in AH.

Ecliptik · « **Reply #57 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:48:50 PM »

Aye. The 38 as it is presently is one of the best fighters in the game. It just doesn't fly like single engined fighters and has a particularly long learning curve. People just starting out in it are bound to get ganked repeatedly, even if they are already proficient pilots in other aircraft. But having put enough combat hours in to develop a certain level of mastery, the 38 is a match for anything and anyone in the arena. It's good enough as is.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #58 on:** May 05, 2004, 03:52:35 PM »

The p38 is good and outturns lw fighters so there goes ur point.

GScholz

yeah the AH model is almost perfect

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #59 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:33:29 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
*Sigh*

Hilts, you know, if you search this forum I'm sure you'll find out that I was like you the first couple of months I was here. Different plane, but same sentiment. Your "version" of the P-38 will never be modelled since HTC model their planes after facts ... not wishful thinking. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll enjoy flying your P-38 in AH.

I've been here a lot longer than a couple of months. I just don't post that much.

I don't get what "version" you're talking about. You are quite confused. I never said I didn't enjoy flying the P-38 here. Even as bad as I am, I still enjoy it.

Do I see certain problems exist with the P-38 as modeled here? Yes. Do I spend every waking moment continually whining about it? No. In fact, I don't remember the last time I even started a thread about the P-38. I drop in on threads others start regularly.