Irony in Iraq?

[VOR]

you can atleast use a spell checker to keep yourself from looking like your ignorant.

Just for fun:

atleast = at least

your ignorant = you're or you are ignorant

[Eagler]

guess we put this lot to shame ...

with our "jumping on naked feet" torture methods..

 

what were we thinking? where is their three square meals, a/c cells and 300 channel cable tvs?

[Toad]

Originally posted by 10Bears
Toad I’m reading your debate here and it’s blowin’ my mind man.. You can’t possibly expect to win this..

There isn't anything to "win" here.

It's just pretty obvious what's going on.

Here....... read this again, give me your answer:

It's a terrible thing; it's disgusting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.

What else do you want?

[strk]

Originally posted by Toad
I don't think anyone is "shrugging it off".

I hope those responsible are tried and punished to the full extent of the law, commensurate with the damage they have caused to the situation in Iraq.

I think our leadership has correctly expressed our disappointment and outrage against the perpetrators.

OTOH, I don't accept the idea that this is "typical" or "standard" behavior for US forces. Nor do I accept the idea that these things were done "systemically", IE: that this was a standard, ordered-from-above method of dealing with prisoners.

Further, I think that those who attempt to paint it as "typical" or "standard" behavior probably have a different agenda rather than just protesting these acts.




Yes, more bad news. However, I'm sure that the people responsible will be punished as I mentioned above.

If anyone wishes to make the case that an army in a similar situation exists or has existed that has/had absolutely no "bad apples" and no disgusting incidences of this kind, feel free to do so.

It's a terrible thing; it's disguting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.

What else do you want?

I hope youa are right and every one who is responsible gets just punishment.  
I think what everyone is worried about is the possibility that the arab world is going to go freakin nuts over this.

[strk]

Originally posted by Eagler
guess we put this lot to shame ...

with our "jumping on naked feet" torture methods..

 

what were we thinking? where is their three square meals, a/c cells and 300 channel cable tvs?

What prisons are  you talking about?  Give me an example of an american prison with a/c and 300 channels in their cell.  If you can find one I can point to several ****holes that have no a/c, or that enforce hard labor, vermin infested, etc.  

THere might be  afew plush country club prisons for the rich in the fed system but state prisons aint pleasant places.

[Toad]

Oh, some people will go "freakin' nuts" over it. Some simply for political purposes and some because they are actually outraged simply on moral grounds. I suspect the former will far outnumber the latter.

However, what's done is done and can't be undone. It doesn't equate to a huge, incredible war crime, however. Those that try to make it the equal of say, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia simply have another, ulterior motive.

The army........ any nation's army...... will reflect the general populace. IE: if you have thieves in the general populace, there will be some in that army as well.

No matter how good an organization, there's always some "rotten apples". Anyone here want to make the case that there's a Police Force in any large city in the world that doesn't have a few officer's guilty of felonius crime? And yet most police are dedicated to the motto of "Protect and Serve". How can it happen that some are crooks?

As I said:

It's a terrible thing; it's disgusting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.

What else do you want?

[Nash]

I kinda agree with Toad... bad apples, or a set of circumstances that allowed the bad apples to do what they did.

Like he said, "it reflects the general populace". True enough, and I wouldn't expect differently.

Nor, I should hope, would an administration... who would send a certain percentage of these bad apples into the powder keg known as the middle east on the flimsiest of evidence, for the sketchiest of reasons.

They must have thought the trade-off would be worth it. That the pluses would outweigh these minuses.

While the minuses are starting to rear their ugly heads, I get more and more confused about whatever the pluses were supposed to be in the first place.

Is this really worth it? If so, what exactly is "it"? Or does it depend on your definition of "is"?

Remember the debates we had over this war Toad? Hindsight is 20-20, and it still aint over, but did you ever suspect that your BBS battles would be reduced to defending actions taken wrt to torture and not a whole lot else?

Ah... those were loftier times....

[Eagler]

strk

you in the backwoods of mississippi or what?

every prison I know of have air conditioned cells and the majority have cable tv, not to mention libraries and such

the cons live better inside with their buds than outside

I think you have seen one to many reruns of Cool Hand Luke - it aint done that way anymore - thats not being nice enough to the criminals in our PC world...

and this entire uproar is politically driven - trying to make Bush look bad. You think the average Joe gives a rats arse what happens to who in an Iraqi prison???

I don't give a rats arse what happens to who in an American prison and I think I am in the majority on that one...

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nash
did you ever suspect that your BBS battles would be reduced to defending actions taken wrt to torture and not a whole lot else?

Clearly a misconception. Please show where I have defended actions taken wrt torture.

I don't condone or approve of any aspect of what happened to the prisoners.

As for the rest, while I was in DC I talked with a person that is directly involved with the "war on terror" at a very high level. I'm sure you'll be interested to hear that he believes chemical weapons were shifted from Iraq to Syria in the two months prior to the war. He had no reason to lie to me, nor did he impart any classified information. However, he just looked me in the eye and said he believes that to be true.

Now, I'm sure that will be easily dismissed by you. I won't be voting for or supporting Bush this time around; he's had his year to find some evidence and display it to the nation.

Still, I can't dismiss what this guy said. I know his history, I roughly know his place in the "war on terror" and he's got access to very high level intel. I also know that he is not "partisan" in the Republican/Democrat sense. What he is, is an old fashioned patriot, neither Dem or Rep but American.

If he's right, then there's some reason this Administration doesn't want to deal with Syria. Yet if the weapons are there, they are probably as much a threat to us as they were in Iraq.

Can't have it both ways. Either they aren't there and the intel was totally wrong. Or they are in Syria and the Admin, so eager to get  them out of Iraq is now shirking on getting them out of Syria. Either way, I can't support Bush.

[Nash]

By "actions taken wrt to torture", I meant just that. Didn't mean to imply you're defending the torture itself.

"It's a terrible thing; it's disgusting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result."

These are actions taken wrt to this mess... And we're not in any disagreement here.

About your friend with the inside info, I remember you saying much the same thing in the months before the war. It's why you were so certain. But the info was that the weapons were in Iraq. If Syria gets invaded and no weapons are found, will it turn out that the weapons are actually in Turkey?

[Toad]

I don't feel like I'm "defending actions taken wrt torture" in either case. Seems to me that a lot of folks haven't taken the time to really look at what happened and the timeline followed. What you quoted is just my take on what happened. It needs no defense, because it common sense. It's how people handle problems in large or small organizations or in their personal life. Problem discovery, problem investigated, solution proposed, action taken, move on.

Note that none of the people trying to make this out to be worse than the Holocaust have been able to answer the simple question "what else do you want?"


As for the WMD, my source prior to the war was a different person. The more recent commentary on Syria is a completely different source. As I said, I'm sure you dismiss it easily. I know the guy, know what job he has, know his integrity. I can't dismiss it easily. I'm comfortable with guys like you dismissing it, however. I didn't post it with the intention of trying to change a mind that's been made up long ago. It's merely the reason I still remain somewhat unconvinced that Bush was wrong.

As I said though, if they are in Syria, they'd still seem to be as much of a threat to us as they were in Iraq. So, his inaction in that event is as unsupportable as his being wrong initially to me. All of the same coin.