Author Topic: explain this to me  (Read 518 times)

Offline Modas

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explain this to me
« on: May 11, 2004, 10:52:48 AM »
Sorry if this has been posted already but....



I'm hearing on the news that there are additional pictures AND videos of iraqi prisoners being tortured (not the ones already released)

Why in the name of all that is holy would you release MORE of this stuff?  IMO that is like drinking gas and p1ssing on a brush fire.  Who's releasing this stuff?  The governent?  News agencies?

Someone should pull their heads out of thier collective butts and wake up.  We know this stuff is going on, no need to release more stuff and make the situation worse.

Punish those responsible and move on.


Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2004, 11:00:55 AM »
Its election year.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2004, 11:01:51 AM »
If the pics are military property then they can burn them in a bonfire for all I care. If they are personal property or in the hands of a news service... tough tatas. The press will print whatever it sees fit. Ain't freedom wonderful?

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2004, 11:03:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its election year.


Do not give me that election year BS. They would be release this stuff anyways. If you do not think that most Americans want to see these, then you are kidding yourself. Plus it is the job of the media to release a story, and this is a story.

btw it is the military releaseing them.

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2004, 11:04:32 AM »
Ratings.

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2004, 11:06:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Ratings.


You do not think this is a legitimate news story?

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2004, 11:12:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
You do not think this is a legitimate news story?


I do indeed.  

But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.

There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there.  This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause.  Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago?  Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?

What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2004, 11:17:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I do indeed.  

But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.

There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there.  This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause.  Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago?  Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?

What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?


There is an investigation that is on going in congress now. Would you like them to not cover this story?

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2004, 11:26:44 AM »
Congress is showboating.  I figure its only  a matter of time before a collection of overzealous Democrats reckon a "fact finding mission" is in order... complete with cameras and a makeup team, of course.

The real investigation is the responsibility of the DoD and has been underway for months.

You didnt answer my question.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2004, 11:32:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I do indeed.  

But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.

There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there.  This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause.  Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago?  Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?

What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?


This is wrong for so many reasons, I don't know for sure where to start, but I'll try.

Quote
But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.

The wound has not healed, it's bleeding freely.  It's a trust wound.  Our allies have doubts about our moral credibility, and our enemies feel that their hatred of us is vindicated.  If we are not completely, and I mean COMPLETELY open and honest with exposing our dirty laundry, saying 'mea culpa', punishing the offenders with no special treatment, and fixing the problem for the future, then that TRUST can never be rebuilt.

Quote
There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there.  This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause.  Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago?  Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?

It's breaking news because hearing about these new pictures IS news.  Without context, what's to prevent everyone in the world from thinking that the new pictures prove a continuing pattern instead of an isolated incident?  You and I know that this was aberrant, but there are plenty of people out there who WANT to believe that the US is in the business of torturing innocents and killing puppies.  The new pictures MUST be analyzed to death so we can make it clear that the guilty will be punished.

Quote
What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?

1. The United States of America is not the military.  The USA has a military, but it is a tool, not the entity of our country itself.  As a result of this, the media, government, corporations, and everyone on the soil of our great land is best served by scrutiny where it is needed.

2. Liberty is like a flower, and the truth is light.  As jerky and annoying as some reporters are, the fact remains that a vigilant media points light at places that would prefer to remain dark, and those dark areas are where individual rights wither.  

Without their scrutiny, the country we live in would have many dark places.

I make no excuses for their personal character.  I know that every human in this country, media included, has his or her own agenda.  If I were to believe that every reporter is guided by a sense of patriotism then I would be a fool, but that's not important.  To push the light metaphor one step further, a reporter is like a guy wearing a miner hat.  No matter where he looks, his spotlight follows, and as my mother used to say, 'even a blind chicken finds a piece of corn occasionally'.  Of course, she said it in german, so it sounded like swearing, but for me, that just reinforces my belief in the ideals that make this country great.  People like my mom strike out from their homes and birthplaces and make the journey to the United States of America because there are so many things that make this land better then anywhere else.  

If you suppress the media, then many of those things will wilt in the darkness and eventually die.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2004, 11:35:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I do indeed.  

But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.

There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there.  This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause.  Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago?  Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?

What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?


The damage is done, we are create more enemys in iraq faster then we can kill them.
It is congress's job to make sure that the military is kept in check, and that the people responsible are punished. Would you rather there be no checks and balances and the military just run itself with no oversite from the representation of the people of which it serves?

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2004, 11:45:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
There is an investigation that is on going in congress now. Would you like them to not cover this story?


But you have stated over and over that investigations dont matter.  Everyone has completly ignored the FACT that once these abuses were reported to the chain of command (or higher) the army handled the investigation by the book.

This was a failure in leadership from the brigade commander on down.  There was a break down in military discipline.  

Again I see the damage.  I dont see the scandel.  A crime was committed and justice is being done.  This is because we have rules and laws.  When they are broken we seek to fix.  This is what seperates us from the terrorists.

The American public has NO RIGHT to see these pictures.  The guards taking them were in fact breaking the law by doing so.  

Releasing the rest of the photos will just make matters worse and make the jobs of GIs in iraq that much harder.  THE PROBLEM IS BEING FIXED GIVE IT TIME.

[edit]  sorry bout the edit.  I accedently hit enter and it posted befor I was finished
« Last Edit: May 11, 2004, 11:53:18 AM by Gunslinger »

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2004, 11:47:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
But you have stated ove and over that investigations dont matter.  Everyone has completly ignored the FACT that once these abuses were reported to the chain of command (or higher) the army handled the investigation by the book.


Yes thats fine the army handled the investigations by the book. On a violation is large and disgracefull congress has deemed that it shall do it's job and investigate the military to make sure it has done it's job to the fullest. I would hope that you do not disagree with this.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2004, 11:51:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Yes thats fine the army handled the investigations by the book. On a violation is large and disgracefull congress has deemed that it shall do it's job and investigate the military to make sure it has done it's job to the fullest. I would hope that you do not disagree with this.


I would not AT ALL disagree to a congresional investigation.  I would completly disagree with congressional grandstanding and politicising this to promote political agenda.

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2004, 11:53:13 AM »
Chairboy, it sounds as though you are more concerend with the political fallout on a global scale.  Understandably so, of course, as I suppose world opinion is something we should give thought to now and again, but all kidding aside, I'd be far more concerned with ensuring that something like this never happened again at the nuts and bolts level than whether or not the showboating illusion of 'investigation' was good enough for the fine people of Syria.

There is a problem - I say we fix it.  'Trust' is an issue we can tackle after the abuse of prisoners is sorted out.  If the problem will be solved (and it will be) I have no problem with the DoD withholding further damaging pictures which will only serve to undermine US efforts, contributing zero to the investigation or the 'healing' process.

Perhaps my opinion would change somewhat if the media and congress went after the officers and enlisted men responsible for this rather than the most important political target they can lay their hands on who, arguably, has done everything right thus far.