Author Topic: Republican Flips and Flops  (Read 1692 times)

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2004, 06:48:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Prove your thesis that all that military spending is solely "military costs of securing foreign oil".

Sources?

Not opinion, either; proof.


Our military presence in the middle east the last 20 years isn't proof enough? The cost of bases, the costs of keeping fleets in the gulf? Are you saying we have spent no money securing foreign oil? How much does it cost to maintain the 5th fleet in the gulf? And how much for our military presence in saudi arabia, care to take a guess? Or do I have to show prove that the 5th fleet was actually there?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 07:09:08 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2004, 07:14:48 PM »
Prove all that was solely related to oil.

For example, how much was for support of Israel?

It's just not that simple, sorry.

But go ahead and document the costs specifically related to oil.

Go ahead.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2004, 07:22:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Prove all that was solely related to oil.

For example, how much was for support of Israel?

It's just not that simple, sorry.

But go ahead and document the costs specifically related to oil.

Go ahead.


And if you want to dance around it, go ahead.

BTW, here is a nice quote for ya


"If Kuwait grew carrots, we wouldn't give a damn."

--Lawrence Korb, assistant defense secretary under Reagan, as the U.S. prepared its massive military assault on Iraq in 1991.

And the $3 billion in aid and loans given to Israel, as well as the aid to Egypt, are a drop in the bucket of US spending in the Middle East.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 07:48:38 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline strk

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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2004, 07:51:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I'd very much like to be one of them some day, and not have to worry about a government playing Robin Hood with my hard earned dollars.

Yes, the country gives opportunities to those that take it. I owe a debt, sure, but to say that somebody that makes a little more owes a disproportionately larger debt is implying that they took advantage of somebody else to get into that position. That may be true in very rare cases, and those rare cases may create a bad rep for the rest of the group, but it's not the average.

Again, and I know this will be lost on you since you only read the first line, there's nothing 'Rich' about some guy working 80 hours a week to just barely fit into that exclusive upper bracket. He has no more obligation to you, or the government, or to the guy who'd just as soon work fewer hours week and complain about it. He worked for his money. He improves the economy and the nation with his labor--which is a service in and of itself.

Of course, it sounds so nice when a million-dollar ketchup bottle starts spewing about taxing the rich. Re-distrubution of wealth!

I'm sure you'll be hearing Chariots of Fire playing in your head, causing the hairs on the back of your neck to stand on end as you cast your vote for him.


that is a convenient example.  You think every over paid executive puts in hours like that?  Im sure that a lot bust their ass, but a lot of poor and middle class folks bust their bellybutton too.  Lets look at the other end of the spectrum - WHat about the guy who works 9 months of the year, makes 30 million dollars.  Do you think it matters if he is taxed at 30 or 35 %?  He wont notice it.  

You subscribe to the fallacy of wishing one day to join the ranks of the rich.  Yet you vote for a party that will cause you to pay a higher percentage of your non-survival income as taxes, thereby blocking you from accumulating wealth.  You are like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders.  

When did America adopt this culture of greed?  was it gordon gekko and miami vice?

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2004, 08:48:53 PM »
Again, you're either not reading, not comprehending, or not paying attention. I'm not talking about 30mil/year CEOs, I'm talking about the guy who works hard and just barely makes the cut for the high tax bracket.

This isn't the land of greed. This is the land of unhindered possibility. Or at least it was, until some of us starting getting guilt complexes to cover for something rooted deeper in the psyches.

The happy ending to all this, strk, is that for every five people that think the way you do, there's a tax attorney out there to make sure there's a way out. I'll be in Law School next year. Maybe I'll kill two birds with one stone and become one.

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2004, 08:53:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Again, you're either not reading, not comprehending, or not paying attention. I'm not talking about 30mil/year CEOs, I'm talking about the guy who works hard and just barely makes the cut for the high tax bracket.
 


Do you know how much you have to make in order to get into the high tax bracket?

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2004, 08:59:38 PM »
288,000 or higher.

Of course, the one directly underneath it affects anyone making over 135,000 a year.

Still pretty short of 30 million, if I'm not mistaken

Look, my point is mostly in principal... There should definitely be fewer tax brackets. Those that are barely getting by should get breaks, but the highest tax brackets, by that same token need to apply to wealthier people--the truly wealthy. Most residents of this nation, who are niether starving nor driving around in white testarossas or arguining about which super yacht to buy, should belong to a consolidated tax bracket.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 09:04:22 PM by Capt. Pork »

Offline Gyro/T69

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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2004, 09:02:49 PM »
If Taxpayer's Income Is... Then Estimated Taxes Are...

Head of Household
 
$0 $10,000 $0 10% $0

$10,000 $35,150 $1,000 15% $10,000

$35,150 $90,800 $4,772.50 27% $35,150

$90,800 $147,050 $19,798.00 30% $90,800

$147,050 $288,350 $36,673.00 35% $147,050

$288,350 - - - - - $86,128.00 38.6% $288,350

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2004, 09:03:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
288,000 or higher.

Of course, the one directly underneath it affects anyone making over 135,000 a year.

Still pretty short of 30 million, if I'm not mistaken


Damn it will be hard to afford 2 new H2's for their kids 16th birthday. Let me shed a tear. Explain to me why people that can barely afford to live in America do not deserve a larger tax cut.

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2004, 09:06:39 PM »
Read my edit....


And nobody's asking you to shed a tear. Like I said, all this, as well as the rediculous estate tax, can all be taken care of with a few visits to a tax attorney.

Offline strk

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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2004, 10:31:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Again, you're either not reading, not comprehending, or not paying attention. I'm not talking about 30mil/year CEOs, I'm talking about the guy who works hard and just barely makes the cut for the high tax bracket.

This isn't the land of greed. This is the land of unhindered possibility. Or at least it was, until some of us starting getting guilt complexes to cover for something rooted deeper in the psyches.

The happy ending to all this, strk, is that for every five people that think the way you do, there's a tax attorney out there to make sure there's a way out. I'll be in Law School next year. Maybe I'll kill two birds with one stone and become one.


well if you learn to love tax law I say more power to you.  And since you have taken the LSAT I dont need to explain what a straw man argument is.

Here is some advice for you - get the book entitled "Planet Law School" and follow the advice to the letter.  You will be ahead of your class from day one.  

And I agree about the tax cheats - it doesnt make it right - and imo its unpatriotic

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2004, 10:31:27 PM »
STRK, don't forget.  The people who make the most money are spending the most money.  


While 5% from a rich guy might not seem like much to him, compare it to 5% out of all rich guys.

That is a hell of a lot of money that is not being spent in the economy.
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Offline strk

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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2004, 10:47:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
STRK, don't forget.  The people who make the most money are spending the most money.  


While 5% from a rich guy might not seem like much to him, compare it to 5% out of all rich guys.

That is a hell of a lot of money that is not being spent in the economy.


the government doesnt just put it in a mason jar and bury it in the WH lawn, they spend that money for the common good, which is the whole purpose.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2004, 10:55:53 PM »
Like I said before, taxes have a much smaller effect on the economy then government spending does (be they for more or less taxes).

If taxes were cut to the american people 40 billion dollars, only 20 would make it into the economy.

However, if Government spending went up 40 billion dollars, about 55-60 billion dollars would be put into the economy through various bank, tax and other processes.


(Those numbers were a slight exhaggeration to show the effects.  They do change based off of certain multipliers).
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Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2004, 12:14:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by strk
well if you learn to love tax law I say more power to you.  And since you have taken the LSAT I dont need to explain what a straw man argument is.

Here is some advice for you - get the book entitled "Planet Law School" and follow the advice to the letter.  You will be ahead of your class from day one.  

And I agree about the tax cheats - it doesnt make it right - and imo its unpatriotic


I will certainly read it. I made the mistake of reading 1L(Turow) before deciding to follow the Law track and am still trying to talk myself down from the hysteria.

Nevertheless, there are many things with which I do not agree. My dad's a doctor. For the last 5 years, he's been elected, by his peers, as the favored practitioner of his specialty in the state of DE(small, I, know, and his specialty is Neurosurgery, thus putting him up against no more than 7 or 8 others at any one time). I would have liked to practive Medical Law, to defend innocent MDs from frivolous law suits. It pisses me off... Because why should my pops, who, at the age of 60, and with a triple by-pass and a titanium heart valve, need to pay over 300k a year in mal-practice insurance when he's never been sued, for any reason(knock on wood)? He cannot retire because he cannot afford to keep paying 300k a year for 5 years, which is what they require of him in the event of a lawsuit down the line... He's a good man, who gives at least ten hours a week of his time to charity, and performs 30% of his operations free of charge because, after all, doctors, especially in his field, exist to save lives, first and foremost...

I think that your friend Bill Clinton did much to ruin the situation for good MDs. He is one of the reasons I'm a conservative at a relatively young age.

I will not make it into malpractice law because I want to work sooner, rather than later, and malpractice law requires a working knowledge of the medical profession and thus, far more education and invested time.

The closest thing I can do is to defend other hard-working, high-earning americans from the injustice of disproportionately elevated income taxes. This is my belief, however unpopular, and I shall stick to it.

Either that or entertainment law, as I still dream of becoming a novelist one day(creative writing is my number-one hobby, followed closely by drinking and looking at naked women--one eye partially drooping and tongue hanging).

Either way, STRK, I respect your beliefs, in spite of my previous statements. I'm glad we can share a nation where at least there's some sort of conceivable middle ground--albeit one that I cannot, at the moment, conceive of myself.