Author Topic: Red states are welfare queens?  (Read 2463 times)

Offline strk

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2004, 05:26:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


You get "big government" involved and that's going to be tough.

It appears that in Vermont, rates went up sharply under Dean's touted plan. Sounds like "harm" to me.

 


well, aside from how things "appear" to you, just the opposite is true.  
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Offline strk

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2004, 05:38:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Well, according to Strk, there's some level, some line you can draw on a person's income. Above that line, all the money is "not needed" so the state should apparently feel free to confiscate it and spend it. Apparently, that's not confiscation though. It's "fair" or something.

;)


and when did I say this?

so let me get this straight - you are against food stamps and housing subsidies - these things we call welfare - for poor individuals - but you have no problem giving federal tax dollars to corporate farmers or other forms of corporate welfare?

Dont fool yourself by thinking these ag subsidies are going to family farmers.  Such a thing does not exist anymore, at least not nearly at the level it once did.

The fact is that the red states take in more federal dollars than they spend - Federal dollars that flow back into the states include highway funds and school funds but it also included block grants for medicare and medicaid.

So WHY are the Blue states supporting the Red ones?  

you see the real irony is that the Red states which give the GOP their base are sucking up Fed tax dollars, while the politicians they elect are supposedly against such largesse.  You would expect the states that are run by GOPers would be a haven offinancial efficiency and responsibility, but it turns out they are the biggest pigs at the trough.

Offline lazs2

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2004, 09:55:49 AM »
there are far less welfare queens in red states.   The blue states have second and third generation women on welfare.

Now... if you are talking about tax money going to areas then that is different.   The solution is simple.   Just stop subsidizing the federal land..  in other words sell it to private companies who could make a lot of use out of it.  As for the farms... simply stop the subsidies.  Let the dust bowl begin... we could pave over the old farms once they are played out.

food is not a big deal anyway... it doesn't benifiet the elite city dwellers so why subsidize the process?  

who needs federal land anyway?  I bet oil companies would give us a pretty penny for Alaskan land... if we sold all the federal land to private companies or individuals then the amount of "welfare" or, money being spent (taxes) on red and blue would have a dramatic shift.

Contrast that with the worthless social programs that we are spending money on in the blue areas.   I have no interest in having my money extorted from me to perpetuate the generations of non productive welfare families in the blue areas.

So... do you want to spend money on increasing drug addiction and breeding worthless people or on food production and national parks.   that is the choice.

Tax breaks for producers is a correct thing to do... it is done every day in every town and city.... cities, states etc ... give tax incentives and such to attract bussines which in turn supports the city/state... when the grey man in California instituted his social and environmental bussiness unfriendly policies in California the state about went under.

No taxes is the best but if you are going to extort money from the people then it is best to give it (actualy take less of it) from the productive than the non productive.   If you give it to the non productive you help very few of em but you create many more times the amount of em...  you create democrats.

lazs

Offline Toad

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2004, 10:08:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by strk
and when did I say this?

 


Here:

Quote
Originally posted by strk
that is a convenient example.  You think every over paid executive puts in hours like that?  Im sure that a lot bust their ass, but a lot of poor and middle class folks bust their bellybutton too.  Lets look at the other end of the spectrum - WHat about the guy who works 9 months of the year, makes 30 million dollars.  Do you think it matters if he is taxed at 30 or 35 %?  He wont notice it.  

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2004, 10:12:41 AM »
Don't put words in my mouth; when you try to do so, you only make it clear you haven't read what I said.

I'm not against food stamps and susidies for folks that need them. For example, food stamps for lower ranking military are a good idea, although simply paying them a decent wage would be better.

OTOH, I'm against food stamps for able bodied people that choose not to work.

Farmers? I'll suggest to you I know a whole lot more about farm subsidy big farmer / small farmer than you do. And I know a whole lot of "small farmers" that you don't think exist anymore. I know some really big ones too. The big ones don't need a subsidy; many of the small ones do. If you don't think so, then the day ADM controls the proces from planting wheat to baking bread you'll finally understand why that was so.

The real irony is that you equate building a Federal Highway to "welfare". There's where your entire argument simply becomes a troll or a lack of intelligence.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Mini D

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2004, 11:06:27 AM »
This is pretty cool.  In the absense of real data, take the data you do have and make the rest up.

There's no real accounting for exactly what the federal dollars are going for, yet that's what the discussion turns to?

Wow.

There just needs to be a "Politics for dummies" forum.  That's a place where people can simply impose their unsubstantiated beliefs in any manner they see fit and then blindly defend it by using bias and vague assumptions.

It's amazing how many reasonably intelligent people have grown so bored with life that they actually choose to participate in crap like this.

MiniD

Offline -MZ-

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2004, 12:19:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
food is not a big deal anyway... it doesn't benifiet the elite city dwellers so why subsidize the process?  
 


Wake up Lasz, its a global economy.  The only reason we pay subsidies to our farmers is to protect them from global competition.

Offline Dune

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2004, 12:37:38 PM »
Only partially correct.  The other reason is because the gov't artificially keeps prices low for the consumer.  The gov't pays farmers money not to produce excess food and/or buys their excess production.  Then it turns around and artificially keeps grocery store prices low so the cosumer doesn't ***** about the price fo lettuce.  

I grew up on a farm in Yuma, AZ.  One of the major cotton and produce producing places in the US.  The majority of the farms were owned by families.  What screws the stats is they produce for one or two major corporations, Tanamura and Antle (Yes, we call it T & A) or Dole/Bruce Chruch.  Thes mega-corps contract with family farmers to keep a certain amount of produce coming into their coolers.  They tell the farmer how much of lettuce, melons, veggies, etc. they want and when they want it produced.  They also approve the seed, herbicide, fertilizer, etc. used.  In return the farmers get a guarenteed market and price for their goods.

So, while it looks like these are mega-corp farms, they really are the family-owned farms that everyone says is gone.  They've just learned how to work with the corporations to their benefit.

Offline strk

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2004, 08:03:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Here:


I just dont see what you mean.  I meant a guy making several million is not going to care if his tax rate is raised from 30 to 35%.  I thought putting it in english would be sufficient.

Offline lazs2

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2004, 08:20:21 AM »
I live in farm country.  We subsidize for a number of reasons but all of them help every person in the U.S.   One of the main reasons is so that the land is not farmed out.  raisng one kind of crop (no matter how profitable) over and over will wear out the land.   too much of a crop will create a glut of one thing and shortages of others.

lazs

Offline Mini D

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2004, 09:12:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by strk
I just dont see what you mean.  I meant a guy making several million is not going to care if his tax rate is raised from 30 to 35%.  I thought putting it in english would be sufficient.
Everyone is going to care if their taxes go up 5% regardless of how much they make.  

This is perhaps the stupidest aproach to taxation I've seen put forth.

MiniD

P.S.  It's already 35% for them, down from 38%.

Offline Toad

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2004, 10:49:18 AM »
Mini, it's just Strk doing the thinking for the multimillionaire and making his decisions on taxation for him.

Who could complain about that? Why shouldn't Strk be able to decide if a guy will notice the tax bite?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline jaxxo

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2004, 11:33:55 AM »
"Jefferson County, the most Eastern County in West Virginia is the most wealthiest county in West Virginia I believe, And it's not suprising. Less than an hour away from D.C and Baltimore, has become the home of tens of thousands of commuters just because of the low taxes compared to MD, VA, and PA. "


Might have something to with the racetrack and casino hehe. I go there occasionally. Lot of my friends have moved to charleston, or charlestown, whichever it is.

Offline -MZ-

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2004, 01:18:13 PM »
We have no problem letting our textiles industry go bankrupt because they can't compete with China, why don't we let our cotton industry go bankrupt because they can't compete with Brazil?

Offline Vermillion

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Red states are welfare queens?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2004, 01:36:49 PM »
Jaxxo,

Charleston, is the states capital located in the south western/central portion of the state, approx an hours drive from where Ohio/WV/Kentucky meet.

Charles Town is in the eastern panhandle and is little more than a suburb of DC now.