Author Topic: WEP on the C205  (Read 3732 times)

Offline GScholz

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2004, 08:25:41 PM »
Pyro on the F4U4:

Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
As counter-intuitive as it may be, that's actually not a bug.  It really did suck a lot less gas in wep than it did in military.  The reason for that is because the engine had to run a very rich mixture at military but at wep it's using water injection and doesn't require such a rich mixture.  As a result, when the water started to flow, it closed a jet in the carburetor and weakened the mixture which cut down the fuel flow considerably.



The air-cooled radials were designed to operate at cruise or normal power, just like any other engine. However they were less suited for emergency power because they easily overheated. A liquid-cooled engine has a rather large engine block made of metal that the cylinders are bored into. Metal is very effective in transferring heat away from the cylinders and transferring it to the coolant through the coolant-loop.

An air-cooled radial only has a thin skin of metal with cooling fins surrounding the cylinders, which is easily overheated compared to the massive engine block of an inline engine. That's why I believe they had to use very rich mixtures at high power settings to help cool the cylinders, piston heads, valves etc.

The Radials were somewhat fuel efficient on low power settings, but still I have not seen any data on a radial that matches the efficiency of the DB and Merlin or indeed any other inline. The radials were favoured for their reliability, toughness and low weight.
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Offline joeblogs

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air vs water cooled engines
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2004, 09:48:03 PM »
In principal you are right Gscholz. The primary benefit of water cooling over air cooling is the minimization of hot spots in the cylinder.

But everthing I've read says that a piston engine run at anything near rated power must be run in a rich fuel mixture, water or air cooled. That doubles the amount of fuel used per pound of air introduced into the cylinder.

It could be the case that fuel consumption at max horsepower (without wep) with a water cooled engine will be less than an air cooled one, but I've not seen any data on US engines to confirm the difference is dramatic.

As I said, the Allison liquid cooled v12 experiences a significant increase in fuel consumption at higher output settings precisely because the fuel mixture goes to auto rich. You also see this with specific engine charts for the P51 using the Merlin.

Here is an example of curves from US specific engine charts:



In this chart (before the carburetor change) the R2800 is a hog at high outputs. The increase for the Allison is about 50% and for the cyclone about 80%. These are rough numbers as the cyclone data is from the Curtiss Wright manual and does not incorporate the installation. The Allison is for the P-38. At peak outputs, the advantage in specific fuel consumption for the Allison over the Twin Wasp is only about 13% and for the Cyclone it is only about 8%. Even for the R2800, the disadvantage is only about 18%.

On the other side of the ocean, if you look at engine charts, such as the ones posted in this thread, you see fuel consumption curves that are much flatter than for US charts. It's true for air cooled engines too. I've seen charts on the BMW 801 and the ASH82 FNV that exhibit the same characteristics.

Fact is that no one during the war ever said that the Germans or Russians had engines that were twice as fuel efficient at rated power as the American engines (let alone Bristol or RR). So I have to wonder if the method of calculation is different than for the US charts.

-blogs

Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Pyro on the F4U4:




The air-cooled radials were designed to operate at cruise or normal power, just like any other engine. However they were less suited for emergency power because they easily overheated. A liquid-cooled engine has a rather large engine block made of metal that the cylinders are bored into. Metal is very effective in transferring heat away from the cylinders and transferring it to the coolant through the coolant-loop.

An air-cooled radial only has a thin skin of metal with cooling fins surrounding the cylinders, which is easily overheated compared to the massive engine block of an inline engine. That's why I believe they had to use very rich mixtures at high power settings to help cool the cylinders, piston heads, valves etc.

The Radials were somewhat fuel efficient on low power settings, but still I have not seen any data on a radial that matches the efficiency of the DB and Merlin or indeed any other inline. The radials were favoured for their reliability, toughness and low weight.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2004, 10:12:49 PM by joeblogs »

Offline GScholz

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2004, 09:58:06 PM »
Well like I said, I don't really know, I'm just reasoning. All I do know is that the DB's fuel efficiency was notable, and both German and Allied documents attest to it. Like the British report Isegrim posted and you quoted. I don't specifically remember a US test on the DB/109, but I'm sure there were several. Perhaps you can find one and see if the US tests are any different?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2004, 10:00:14 PM by GScholz »
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Offline joeblogs

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well you are right too
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2004, 10:34:37 PM »
It's all a question of degree. The DBs are reletively efficient engines and I can think of at least two reasons why: high compression ratios and a single stage supercharger operating on a continuously variable clutch. Given the low octane fuels it was rated on, its especially efficient. I just wonder how it's fuel consumption at rated output can really be below 0.7 lbs/hp/hr.

Even my chart shows a water cooled engine that does better at high output than three good air cooled radials.


-blogs
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Well like I said, I don't really know, I'm just reasoning. All I do know is that the DB's fuel efficiency was notable, and both German and Allied documents attest to it. Like the British report Isegrim posted and you quoted. I don't specifically remember a US test on the DB/109, but I'm sure there were several. Perhaps you can find one and see if the US tests are any different?

Offline GScholz

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2004, 10:46:14 PM »
Eh ... isn't the Allison in your chart below 0.7 at max power?
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Offline joeblogs

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wep
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2004, 05:28:02 AM »
I mean rated power, not WEP.

Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Eh ... isn't the Allison in your chart below 0.7 at max power?

Offline GScholz

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2004, 07:23:07 AM »
Well the Allison in your chart was at 0.70 or below at any power setting. Why do you find it strange that the DB used less than the Allison considering the variable speed blower, high compression ratio, direct fuel injection etc.?
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Offline joeblogs

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2004, 08:23:14 AM »
The puzzler is how the top end can be reletively low when the bottom end is about 20 percent high relative to the Allison.

But I must concede your DB chart is a lot more plausible than the earlier one  in this thread, which shows almost no variation in specific fuel consumption.

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Well the Allison in your chart was at 0.70 or below at any power setting. Why do you find it strange that the DB used less than the Allison considering the variable speed blower, high compression ratio, direct fuel injection etc.?

Offline MiloMorai

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2004, 08:57:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz




The air-cooled radials were designed to operate at cruise or normal power, just like any other engine. However they were less suited for emergency power because they easily overheated. A liquid-cooled engine has a rather large engine block made of metal that the cylinders are bored into. Metal is very effective in transferring heat away from the cylinders and transferring it to the coolant through the coolant-loop.

An air-cooled radial only has a thin skin of metal with cooling fins surrounding the cylinders, which is easily overheated compared to the massive engine block of an inline engine. That's why I believe they had to use very rich mixtures at high power settings to help cool the cylinders, piston heads, valves etc.

 


But inline engines are enclosed in the fuselage with no air flowing past the block to help disapate the heat radiating from the block. The block can become saturated with heat. Radials on the other hand, have cold air passing over the multitude of fins on the cylinders and directly on the crankcase. (P-47s in the ETO had at one time an overcooling problem)These fins also help disapate the heat from the oil which on an inline must go to an oil cooler(radials have an oil cooler as well).


Angus

All aluminium engines have sleeves or cylinder liners. The Bristol  radials and Napier Hs used sleeve valves.

how sleeve valves work
http://www.geocities.com/kiwiengineer2002/sleeve.html

Offline Angus

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2004, 11:48:00 AM »
So all of the main WW2 engines had cylinder sleeves right? The P&W, RR, DB, BMW, Allison, Wright, Bristol, etc etc?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline joeblogs

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ETO Cold
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2004, 12:19:49 PM »
For a time, the Allisons in the P38 were non-functional in Nothern Europe because they were over-cooled at high altitudes. The problem was eventually fixed, but not until after the P51 had replaced their role.

I'm not sure why cylinder liners have much to do with all this. The liners are there primarily for strength and durability relative to aluminum. Yes they are there. Yes, steel or Iron liners have different heat entropy properties. But so what?

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
But inline engines are enclosed in the fuselage with no air flowing past the block to help disapate the heat radiating from the block. The block can become saturated with heat. Radials on the other hand, have cold air passing over the multitude of fins on the cylinders and directly on the crankcase. (P-47s in the ETO had at one time an overcooling problem)These fins also help disapate the heat from the oil which on an inline must go to an oil cooler(radials have an oil cooler as well).


Angus

All aluminium engines have sleeves or cylinder liners. The Bristol  radials and Napier Hs used sleeve valves.

how sleeve valves work
http://www.geocities.com/kiwiengineer2002/sleeve.html
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 12:22:27 PM by joeblogs »

Offline MiloMorai

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WEP on the C205
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2004, 12:59:51 PM »
Joe, the liners were mentioned because Angus asked about them; nothing to do with the rest of the post.