Author Topic: Need assistance with selecting a hunting rifle (Read 3110 times)

txmx · « **Reply #75 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:06:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Weak minded troll... If you beleive that you know nothing of guns. I've been doing this all my live. Hunting since I was 12 years old and before that in the woods with my father. I know what the 308 Winchester can do. Your insane if you beleive your last statment.
Pick on me all you want. I dont look at it that way. I work in the gun bisiness. I am asked questions ever single day as to why I think this that or the other thing... I know what works well and I know what works better. Why? Because I've used it. The 308 Win is nothing more than a shorter and fatter 30-06 Springfield. Making it shorter and fater and changing the neck of the case also makes it one of the most efficient rounds out there.

When I said the 308 has killed everything on the Planet I mean JUST that.

I look and see how you talk about being a hunter, but you speak like that of someone who has no idea what hes talking about. Sure you know your calibers. But that doesn't mean squad.

AND you are comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about the 460 WM. Christ man. He's not going on an afican dangerous game hunt.

You can hit a White Tail deer in the gut with a 460. Its still going to run its heart out. How "sportsman like" is that? Its about shot placement. Not about the size of the bullet and how fast and hard it hits. It stays that way until it you start to talk about dangerous game.

LOL ok then you must really know more than me then

txmx · « **Reply #76 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:10:39 PM »

LOL belive me or not I know alot about what the nato 7.62 aka 308 round will and will not do.

Having been trained in that weaon system
and having used it over the years.
Any weapon will kill any animal .
Hell If you pump enough 223 s into an elephant he will bleed to death at some point.

I am talking about a first shot kill where he drops to the ground when shot.

And a 308 aint gonna do it sorry.

Morpheus · « **Reply #77 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:12:45 PM »

LOL OK bud you take your 15lb "sniper rifle" and I'll take my 4 3/4lb Dakota Arms mountain rifle. (Slams the watermelon out of you but if you want low recoil stick to your 15lb guns and stay out of the woods) I've taken 3 bull elk with the 308 at well over 250yrds with it. ALL 1 SHOT KILLS. Its about shot placement with non-dangerous game. With dangerous game you want to factor in a high energy hard hitting round.

And how many "man hunts" have you been on? I mean really? lol

Thats a range gun simple as that. At best you truck it out and sit with it all day in the prone atop a mountain.

This is what 4 days of back packing and tracking in bad weather with a ultra light Dakota in 308 can get you. (Thats my idea of a hunt)

I took this bull in Wolf Creek Montana on our land 3 years ago. It hangs in one of our stores now.

ITS ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT. What more do I need to say to get that across?

I know farmers out there which all they use for elk is a ratty old 30-30 Winchester. They take 100 yrd shots nearly every year with no problem. How can they do this and get away with it? They hit the thing in the right place.

Morpheus · « **Reply #78 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:21:07 PM »

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Hell If you pump enough 223 s into an elephant he will bleed to death at some point.

Whos going on an Elephant hunt?

I thought we were talking about a gun to hunt Elk.. no?

And 223 Rem was never brought up. Not by me.

Toad · « **Reply #79 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:30:56 PM »

Was on an antelope hunt and one fellow from the South shows up with a .375 H&H.

It worked. He got a one shot kill on an average buck at about 250 yards; right through both shoulders. Of course, he discarded the two front quarters.

The rest of us had .243's and 6mm's. We all got our antelope too. But we got to use all of the meat.

txmx · « **Reply #80 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:31:41 PM »

Maybe a little history on the 308 winchester round is needed.
After ww1 US ordanance begane looking for a replacement for the 30-06 springfield.
well LOL by 1944 engineers at Frankford arsonal had begun to mess with the 300 savage case desiganted as 30T65 performance was about equal to the 30-06.

After many test and revisions it was designated the T65E3 and was adopted by NATO on 12-15-1953

The US embraced the 7.62mm NATO cartridge in two new weapons the M14 rifle and th M60 machinegun.

Around that time winchester introduced the cartridge to the public as the 308.

There ya have some hisory LOL.

Now the following is right out of the Seirra roloading manuel

And I quote:
the 308 has become quite popular as a hunting cartridge and is adequate for "most" N American big game species, particularly deer-sized game.
Though frequently compared to it the 308 cannot match the performance of the 30-06.
The difference between the two how ever is insignificant unless bulletts 180 grains or heaveirs are discussed.
The 30-06's greater capacity and ability to use slower burning powders give it and undeniable edge.

txmx · « **Reply #81 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:35:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MoRphEuS

And how many "man hunts" have you been on? I mean really? lol

Thats a range gun simple as that. At best you truck it out and sit with it all day in the prone atop a mountain.

Well for quesstion one : It's what I trained to do .

Quesstion two: I lugged a Xm-21 on 18 mile road marches and on countless field ops so I guess It dont bother me much.

txmx · « **Reply #82 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:47:57 PM »

Just food for thought as well
Energy as in Ft/lbs for the 190 grn HPBT
308 2.851@2.600Ft per sec

Now for the win300 mag 190grn HPBT
3.797 @3.000 ft per sec

I think you can see witch one packs more of a punch.

Oh and with the 300 win mag you can go up to 240 grn bulletts too and get 4.179
Ft/lbs of energy !

Morpheus · « **Reply #83 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:54:29 PM »

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The rest of us had .243's and 6mm's. We all got our antelope too. But we got to use all of the meat.

There ya go;)

Tmx now you are comparing the 308 to the '06. First it was between some of the most powerful prod calibers in the world such as the 460WM.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to open up a reloading manual and look at the balistics between the two. The 308 and the '06 that is. With the same powders and the same 180gr bullet the 308 is 20 fps slower than the '06. (That was taken from the SPEER reloading manual.) That comparison used IMRs 4320. A mid range burning powder.

Do you honestly beleive that what you shoot will be able to tell the difference between 20 feet per second?

NOW FOR THE KICKER!

When you slug a 200gr bullet in both the '06 and the 308, the 308 will out perform the '06.

Here is one simple comparison of the data.

Using IMR 4895. (Fast Burning)

308 Win.
40 Grns of 4895
MV of 2366fps

30-06
45 grns of 4895
MV of 2333fps.

My point is that the 308 can be loaded to do anythig the '06 can. Its a two way street mind you. If you take other powders with different burn rates the 06 will out do the 308. Basicly the 308 with its shorter fatter case likes faster hotter burning powders than '06 does.

This isn't anything new when it comes to arguing about the two calibers and as to which is the better one of the two. I have guns in both the 06 and 308, Neither are among my favorite calibers. But when you need to get the job done, and not have to worry about finding ammo when you are on a hunt away from home they are the way to go.

Morpheus · « **Reply #84 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:57:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by txmx
Just food for thought as well
Energy as in Ft/lbs for the 190 grn HPBT
308 2.851@2.600Ft per sec

Now for the win300 mag 190grn HPBT
3.797 @3.000 ft per sec

I think you can see witch one packs more of a punch.

Oh and with the 300 win mag you can go up to 240 grn bulletts too and get 4.179
Ft/lbs of energy !

You CAN'T compare apples to oranges my friend.

A belted magnum to a 308.... Well duh!

The 300wm better dam well out do the 308. Why are you going off on all sorts of calibers and comparisons of such? You cant compare the two. They are two entirely different rounds. They SHOULDNT match up to each other.

txmx · « **Reply #85 on:** May 23, 2004, 04:03:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MoRphEuS

Btw, 30 cal can be .307, .308, .303... I can go on and on and on... So not every 30 caliber bullet is of .308 dia.

Here is just a short list of the 30 cal rounds that are 308 in diameter.

30 BR Remington=308 dia
30-30 winchester=308 dia
30-40 Krag=308 dia
300 savage=308 dia
30-06=308 dia
300 remingtom= 308 dia
300 winchester mag=308 dia
300 H&H mag=308 dia
30-338=380 dia
308 Norma= 308 dia
300 weatherby mag=308 dia
30-378 weatherby mag=308 dia

I can go on and on but I am now bored and have writers cramp.

But you see a pattern here

txmx · « **Reply #86 on:** May 23, 2004, 04:08:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You CAN'T compare apples to oranges my friend.

A belted magnum to a 308.... Well duh!

The 300wm better dam well out do the 308. Why are you going off on all sorts of calibers and comparisons of such? You cant compare the two. They are two entirely different rounds. They SHOULDNT match up to each other.

Would you like me to find a none belted round?

The point i am making is the 308 nato aint all that and a box of chips.

It aint bad but it is far from the best hunting round.

If you had to strictly rely on shot placement Hell I would take a 270 over a 308 anyday .
Faster flatter and if ya hit him right just as dead.

But not everybody hit's em just right the first time around You know a little Buck fever get them.

I like having the edge and a little extra powder pushing a bigger bullett never hurts.

Morpheus · « **Reply #87 on:** May 23, 2004, 04:11:52 PM »

308 Win w/200gr bullet @ 2400 pfs

460 Weatherby Mag w/500gr bullet @ 2650 fps.

Well watermelon guys. I dont know about you but Im going out and getting me one of these 460WMs for my next elk rifle. Screw shot placement. And at $60 bucks a box we can shoot it all day. And the recoil will be unlike anything you've ever felt but who cares!

I say Winchester, Kimber, Remington, Savage ect all ditch all of their lines and produce 460s and 300mags. This way you can have 1 gun that will destroy anything it hits.

txmx · « **Reply #88 on:** May 23, 2004, 04:14:28 PM »

Better yet we can just call in a C-130 Gunship LOL.
Fire up the grill Honey I'm bringin home the steaks.

Morpheus · « **Reply #89 on:** May 23, 2004, 04:18:10 PM »

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It aint bad but it is far from the best hunting round.

You cannot define the "best hunting round". Its imposible. One day you are hunting for white tail and the next you are on a hunt in alaska for brown bear. So what? You want to start shooting everything you hunt with belted mags? Each gun has its own purpose. Thats why I have many. Same with handguns.

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If you had to strictly rely on shot placement Hell I would take a 270 over a 308 anyday .Faster flatter and if ya hit him right just as dead.

OMG now you are back tracking and saying the same dam thing I was trying to say aout 10 posts ago!

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I WAS SAYING? ABOUT A LITTLE FACTOR CALLED "SHOT PLACEMENT"???