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Author Topic: Can't hit a barn with the 109!  (Read 1482 times)

Offline GScholz

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2004, 05:15:48 PM »
What's "unstable" about it?

Edit: And they will come out at any speed in you pull enough G's, but at high speeds the airframe probably breaks first. At medium speeds they deploy in high G turns.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2004, 05:17:58 PM by GScholz »
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Offline Batz

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2004, 05:26:37 PM »
The 109 we renowned for its stability at low speeds, the slats didnt make the plane unstable they lowered the stall speed...

Quote
Mark Hanna had this to say regarding the 109G2 he flew for 'The Old Flying Machine Cmpany', most of us know who Mark Hannah is and would regard his opinion as 'expert'. He is comparing it to the Spitfire Mk IX and the P51D after conducting mock dogfights in these fighters.

"I like the airplane, and with familiarity, I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time--particularly in a close, hard-turning, low-speed dogfight. It will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight because the roll rate and slow-speed characteristics are much better. The Spitfire, on the other hand, is more of a problem for the 109, and I feel it is a superior close-in fighter. Having said that, the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot ability would probably be the deciding factor. At higher speeds, the P-51 is definitely superior, and provided the Mustang kept its energy up and refused to dogfight, it would be relatively safe against the 109."
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Offline Waffle

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2004, 05:31:08 PM »
If the automatic slats deploy unevenenly - then you have 2 different "airfoils" on each wing - which would result in a lateral uneveness or quick unexpected change, resulting in control input to correct it to keep your target in sight. Then with that control input, if the slats retracts or the other deploys - then you're correcting for that adjustment. Back and forth small corrections to adjust for the "unexpected" slat deployment.


My point is about a lateral wobble, or the lack of stabilty when slats deploy unevenly.
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Offline Batz

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2004, 05:36:27 PM »
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"I got both in a turning battle, out-turning them. We did several times 360 degrees until he became nervous, then pulled a little too much. His plane "warned", the pilot had to give way a little and I was able to get deflection. When I got to shoot at the other one, the entire left side was ripped off.

- So you did several full circles, you must have flown near stalling speed. Did you fly with "the seat of your pants" or kept eye on the dials? What was the optimum speed in such a situation, it was level flight?

It was level flight and flying by "the seat of your pants". What should I say, I should say I was doing 250kmh and the Mustang must have more than 300kmh. That is why I was able to hang on but did not get the deflection.

- And you was flying a three cannon plane?

Yes, but I did fly another one as mine was under maintenance. It was the experience that counted. Experience helped to decide when you had tried different things.

- In which altitude did these Mustang dogfights take place?

It must have been about 2000m."

- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.


I can post an account of 109e pilot in BoB claiming he could out turn a spit 1 while slats were out...

The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming the 109 was an excellent low speed fighter...
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Offline Waffle

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2004, 05:43:07 PM »
not arguing about the turning abilitly or the low speed stall characteristics.....

Talking about being a good gun platform and the issues relating to this in regards to uneven slat deployment and the resulting "wobble" and correction/overcorrection applied by the pilot to keep the target in sight. Which would make the uneven slat deployment a hinderance to sighting a target in slow speed turns.
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Offline GODO

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2004, 05:57:45 PM »
AH 109G10 MG151/20 ROF: 150 bullets in 13 seconds, 692 rpm.
AH 190A5/A8/F8/D9 MG151/20 ROF: 250 bullets in 24 seconds, 625 rpm.

Real unsynchronized MG151/20 ROF: 750 rpm.

AH 109G10 unsynchronized Mk108 ROF: 65 bullets in 6,5 seconds, 600 rpm
Real Mk108 600 rpm.

So, while Mk108 seems ok, our 151/20 is firing slower than the real one.
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Offline GScholz

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2004, 06:17:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Waffle BAS
not arguing about the turning abilitly or the low speed stall characteristics.....

Talking about being a good gun platform and the issues relating to this in regards to uneven slat deployment and the resulting "wobble" and correction/overcorrection applied by the pilot to keep the target in sight. Which would make the uneven slat deployment a hinderance to sighting a target in slow speed turns.


If it happens exactly when you're trying to make a shot then yes, that would make things a bit more difficult. I would think this was not a common occurrence though.
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Offline Urchin

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2004, 06:19:16 PM »
The inner cannons on the 190 fire through the prop, don't they?  
They'd have to be syncronized.
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Offline GODO

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2004, 06:23:55 PM »
No idea about the ROF of synchronized 151/20, probably it depends totally on propeller blades openning and closing some electric contact to trigger the fire of the gun.

But 109s 151/20s are all unsynchronized, and they are lacking near 60 rpm.
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Offline GScholz

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2004, 06:30:30 PM »
The inner cannons on the 190s are synchronised with electrical priming. Not wanting to invite Murphy the outer cannons also were electrically primed (but unsynchronised). All MG151s on 109s were unsynchronised and percussion primed.
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Offline Urchin

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2004, 06:31:39 PM »
Tested the 109F4, I got ~12 seconds for 150 rounds.  Only tested it 4 times though, but all 4 times it was about 12 seconds.  

So for me the RPM was 750.
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Offline GODO

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2004, 06:53:04 PM »
Did the same test with every 109, getting 13 secs every time. May be my stopwatch (sadly it does not count millisecs), may be yours ...
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Offline Pyro

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2004, 06:59:17 PM »
MG 151/20 fire rate is set to 700 rpm.
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Offline GODO

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2004, 07:09:54 PM »
shouldnt it be 750 for 109s?
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Offline Mugzeee

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Can't hit a barn with the 109!
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2004, 09:51:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fluffy
As usual - people will develop the skills to adapt to the new more realistic conditions.
- Twang

Or perhapes a different selection from the hanger? Hence a different style. I believe Game Play issues such as this usally dictate Flight Selection by and large.
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