American Military Prisoner Abuse is horrific...

[ravells]

Hi Virgil,

From the information that I have read, organisations like Amnesty International and the Red Cross were reporting on prisoner abuse as far back as July 2003.  source

As to the tolerability of abuse, I was responding to Bodhi's initial post. I could be wrong, but he seems to be saying that parading prisoners naked or forcing them to kneel on grills for 3 hours is 'not such a bad thing' - presumably in comparison to what went on before the invasion.

I'd be interested to read the report you refer to in your last paragraph...could you find it again and post it up? Thanks in advance.

Ravs

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The column refers to the British magazine "The Economist". You'll have to look for the articles yourself as they are not directly quoted.

You say that the Red Cross reported abuses as early as mid 2003. However, the story itself did not become "news" until CBS got a hold of some photos. This was AFTER the military had begun an investigation AND informed Congress. So, no, the Red Cross did not inform everyone, and is not responsible from breaking the news. Nor is Amnesty International. The "world" was not "informed" by the efforts of either.

The real problem with this entire situation is that attempts are being made to portray the actions of a few to be the policy of the administration and the norm for entire military, and neither is in fact true. The media would have everyone believe that the incidents at Abu Graib prove that the entire military, all the way up to Rumsfeld and possibly Bush, are stooping to the level of Stalin, Hitler, and Tojo, and their minions. That is not the case.

[ravells]

Thanks Virgil, the Economist is a well respected magazine. I'll have a look see through the back issues and see what I can dig up on this.

Yes, the issue only became 'news' when the pictures were published and the military were investigating before that. I wonder, though, whether those investigations were prompted (at least in part) by the fact that the Red Cross and AA were publishing reports on the abuses. I believe that it was partly or mainly those reports that forced the army to investigate.

As to whether this was something sanctioned by the administration, here's what I think (and I'm amazed this hasn't been discussed on the BBS - or if it has, I missed it).

One of the first rules of politics is 'plausible deniability' (I think that is the term). If a political leader wants to conduct an operation which will have nasty repercussions if it becomes public, he does not expressly authorise the operation. He authorises it by implication and there is invariably no record of the conversation.

For example:

Army General: 'Well sir, these prisoners may have valuable information which will save the lives of our troops'.

Policitcal Leader: 'General, the lives of our troops are of paramount importance and I mean paramount. I want you to do everything you can to get that information.'

The General then has a similar conversation with his subordinate and so on down the chain. Of course, when questioned on the subject, the people near the top of the ladder can quite legitimately say that they never authorised or knew about the torture. However, the message they give to their subordinates is clear. That is 'plausible deniability'.

It was a long time ago, and I may be mistaken about this, but I think the Oliver North / Contra affair was an example of this in American politics.  

Plausible deniability is giving someone authority to do something 'wrong' but making it clear it will be them, not you, who are going to be hung out to dry if the situation becomes public.

Ravs

[edit] did a google. Good article on plausible deniability here

[storch]

Originally posted by Gixer
I guess the 30 odd that have died while in detention and are under investigation were being subjected to more then walking naked through cells.

Prision abuse scandel is a disgrace no matter how much you try and play it down. It has caused a great deal of harm to US military credibility and respect in the world. At a time when things were bad enough with the invasion of Iraq and missing weapons of mass distruction.

Unfortunetly the prisoner and invasion of Iraq does nothing more then stir more anti US hatered in the Arab world and give Osama even more resources and fresh young recruits eager to join.

Starting to think that the invasion of Iraq was the best thing the US could of done for Al Queda not the other way around.



...-Gixer

I have to agree with that sentiment.  There is no excuse for it.  It is contemptible behavior and should be universally condemded.  We can offer no excuse for it.  What the President did was the correct thing to do.  Now we must put it behind us and continue to subjugate the rest of those terrorist, and simply take no more prisoners.  Nothing wrong with a thorough field interrogation prior to taking no prisoners first.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by ravells
Hi Virgil,

From the information that I have read, organisations like Amnesty International and the Red Cross were reporting on prisoner abuse as far back as July 2003.  source

As to the tolerability of abuse, I was responding to Bodhi's initial post. I could be wrong, but he seems to be saying that parading prisoners naked or forcing them to kneel on grills for 3 hours is 'not such a bad thing' - presumably in comparison to what went on before the invasion.

I'd be interested to read the report you refer to in your last paragraph...could you find it again and post it up? Thanks in advance.

Ravs

lol,

you are so naive, I was being sarcastic in regards to kneeling on the grate.  Thats a punishment my mom reserved for myself many years ago when I was truly acting as an imbecille kid.  As for the rest of you, the actions of a few are not the actions of many.  Until there is difinitive proof, stop saying these orders came down from higher up.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Yeager
Just heard on this news a report about one of the 507th soldiers who was captured in uniform and executed two days later by bullets to the back.  Nasty business war.  Above all else keep your thoughts in perspective, thats the difficult part for many.

Yeah remember our focus... seems tome that many people have forgotten this:



God Bless their souls   to the people who died in the WTC, and pentagon 9-11-01, your murder will not be forgotten.

[ravells]

I detected the sarcasm, but wasn't sure what point you were trying to make - unless it was that parading people naked through prison blocks was small-fry stuff and not abuse at all.  Perhaps that's right, but it needs to be looked at as only one action in a series of abusive actions.

For 'plausible deniability' reasons, I don't think you are ever going to find 'definite proof' that senior people in the administration knew or authorised this.

Ravs

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by Eagler
wow

those that live in glass countries should not throw stones ... your countrymen have won the prize for "prisoner abuse" for all time....

Sorry....Germany doesn't even make the first cut...Japan holds that distinction...

If you really want to draw brass tacks, we're not in an elevated position to preach morality, either...

Maybe Iceland is, though...

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by Bodhi
the actions of a few are not the actions of many.  Until there is difinitive proof, stop saying these orders came down from higher up.

So, by your own admission, we should have done more to have definitive proof before sending soldiers into harm's way?

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Gixer
I guess the 30 odd that have died while in detention and are under investigation were being subjected to more then walking naked through cells.

Prision abuse scandel is a disgrace no matter how much you try and play it down. It has caused a great deal of harm to US military credibility and respect in the world. At a time when things were bad enough with the invasion of Iraq and missing weapons of mass distruction.

Unfortunetly the prisoner and invasion of Iraq does nothing more then stir more anti US hatered in the Arab world and give Osama even more resources and fresh young recruits eager to join.

Starting to think that the invasion of Iraq was the best thing the US could of done for Al Queda not the other way around.



...-Gixer

Why not just think of it as the Army's version of "Scared Straight" program...but we'll call it "Horrify Haji".  Sure beats the Saddam method--paper shredder.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by GScholz
Yeah Bodhi! The Iraqi prisoners were responsible for 9/11, we must never forget that! Forward Christian soldiers, forward!

Well, considering the link between Sadaam and Al Quaeda, with most of these insurgents being loyal to Sadaam, yeah, I guess I can say that they are partly responsible.  

Personally, I think the treatment of some of the prisoners in Iraq is deplorable, and those that did it deserve a swift and harsh punishment.  What I do not agree with is the media's reaction to this considering that their only purpose of continually playing it is to help to influence an election.  Hopefully the intelligent see through, because as evidenced by these boards, the idiots sure don't...  

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by GScholz
Personally I think those justifying the mistreatment of prisoners are deplorable. Incidentally it is usually the same people justifying the war, and that are still in the mistaken belief that the war has anything to do with terrorism and 9/11.

Ok Mr.Wizard, please astonish us all with your wonderfully intuitive intellectual insight on what the war is about...  

[DiabloTX]

Originally posted by GScholz
Personally I think those justifying the mistreatment of prisoners are deplorable. Incidentally it is usually the same people justifying the war, and that are still in the mistaken belief that the war has anything to do with terrorism and 9/11.

Ok G, I gotta ask ya.  What should've been done after Afghanistan?  

There is a war going on, it was declared on 9/11 (you can argue it was started well before that) but the events on that day made it known they were out to get us by any means necessary.  What would've you done differently?  Stand by and wait for the UN to draw up *another* resolution?  

I am not defending the prisoner abuse by any means.  I've said it before and I will say it again, we are there to help the helpless.  That may be a little simplified but that's the way I see it.

[DiabloTX]

Originally posted by GScholz
National interests (or perhaps the interests of a few of your nationals) ... as always.

And if Kerry wins in Nov. what will you call it then?

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Sorry....Germany doesn't even make the first cut...Japan holds that distinction...

If you really want to draw brass tacks, we're not in an elevated position to preach morality, either...

Maybe Iceland is, though...

I think we have a ways to go .. don't see any trains hauling ppl to hideways with strange smelling smoke billowing out of their smokestacks....