Dora experts ...

[Crumpp]

That link just brings me to the Yahoo page.  Do you have to be a yahoo member to use it?

Gscholtz,
As soon as the manual arrives I will post the info on the flap speeds.  Interesting you mention that.  In "Combat Legends"  Focke-Wulf Fw 190" by Peter Cayhill under the German flight testimonials it is mentioned that you can drop 10 degrees of flap, increase the throttle to overcome the drag, and tighten the 190's turn radius considerably.  Unfortunately it does not specify the speed.

Crumpp

[GScholz]

Right click on the link Crumpp and select "save target as".

Yeah I was thinking the same thing with the flaps.

[niklas]

Originally posted by GScholz
Good catch! It must be the 398mph on the deck Sonder Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor WEP that has the 2240PS rating.  

No. That was an project calculation in April 45, probably with 2600PS

I agree with Hohun, the 1st gear probably wasn´t allowed OR could not be used IN FLIGHT. Note that MW-50 was only allowed in flight.
The critical altitude was pretty low, so maybe it couldn´t be used in flight, though RAM effect would shift the critical alitude upwards for the 1st gear to over 1km, at least in fast flight. I don´t know. Maybe the documentation department just took the wrong number.

niklas

[Crumpp]

ARRRRRRGH!

I've got kodak easyshare software and Adobe Acrobat.  It downloads as a tif file and kodak is only opening the first page.  Can't seem to be able to convert to Pdf.  

Somebody please square me away on converting this thing.  Thanks

Crumpp

[gripen]

Crumpp,
Get Irfranview or some else free viewer.

gripen

[Crumpp]

Thanks!

Got it

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Well there you have it.  "If necessary" you could use C3 in the Jumo 213A.  I am very skeptical about huge performance gains with it.  If it was the "best" performing fuel to run in the motor then it would have been the recommended fuel IMO.  In fact "C3" was the more common late war fuel that Germany produced.  "B4" was not the priority fuel for production.   It would have been easier I imagine to get "C3".

Crumpp

[GODO]

Well, may be Germany was really running out of fuel and reserved as much C3 as possible for 190A8s and A9s. Probably D9s using C3 did not experience a noticeable performance gain while A series did. Probably C3 was used by D9s only at those places where no B4 or no MW50 was available.

[Batz]

The C3 stencil was applied on almost every G-10/K-4 because the DB 605DM was supposed to run on C3 to achieve the 1.75ata, exactly like the DB 605ASM.

BUT following shortage of C3, later revision of the motorenkarte, associated MW-50 documents and TA documents show B4 as a possible substitute fuel. The only restriction was not to cut MW-50 supply while running at a high boost because of detonation. And the aircraft were not repainted in any way.

Since C3 could sustain up to 2.2ata supply of MW-50 could be shutdown w/o any detrimental effects provided the pilot did not let the engine temp rise. Some testbed engine ran at 1.7ata with just C3 for instance.

Note that it was planned to up the DB605D max boost to 2.3ata with both C3 and MW-50.

As for the fuel supply, i own copies showing detailled stockpile status for february-april 1945 but i can't publish it here nor comment much on it. But yes the C3 was definitely scarce.

Butch made this reply in a discussion about 109s and C3

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108817

C3 was rare and the BMW'd 190s needed it or they could not run. The DBs and the Jumo could run B4 and Mw50. Niklas points out that there may have been other reasons why B4 and Mw50 was used primarily by the d9 but that has no bearing on the claims Crumpp made.

He stated categorically that the D9 couldn’t and did not ever use C3. On the site GS linked at the top of the thread the webmaster has listed speed and climb for a d9 using C3. In the threads I linked the webmaster claims to have a document showing C3 and at least 1 image of a d9 and a C3 fuel decal. I suggested that Crumpp email the webmaster and ask for more info. No one here claimed that the D9 used C3 as a standard.

The speeds listed on that site show that C3 produced more speed. In the thread I linked in this post you will see the performance gain when the db605d uses C3 + mw50 to B4 + mw50. Clearly there’s a "performance gain".

That thread also shows that C3 was rare and needed by the bmw 190s.

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/prim...145_45_sec2.htm

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/prim...d/mof-secth.pdf

So Crumpp was wrong even if he cant admit it.

[Crumpp]

LOL

Hey Batz, Gripen already posted a link that showed German fuel production.  According to it C3 had the production priority.  Fuel of any type was scarce toward the end of the war.  Here it is....

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_145_45/rpt_145_45_sec2.htm#Composition and Specification

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The relative volumes of production of the two grades cannot be accurately given, but in the last war years the major volume, perhaps two-thirds (2/3) of this total has the C-3 grade. Every effort was being made toward the end of the war to increase isoparaffin production so that C-3 volume could be increased for fighter plane use. The isoparaffin usage in that grade had already been cut to a minimum.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it makes sense that if you have no other fuel available then use what you have.  Common sense dictates that you would recommend the best performing fuel and use the phrase "if necessary" for the one that works but doesn't work as well.

I know you can't stand to have your supreme knowledge of all things Luftwaffe questioned, Batz.   Sorry but I won't take another discussion on a different BB by the same folks as proof.  The RLM document is presented and the Jumo 213 could use "C3" if necessary.  I highly doubt your claim of increased performance on it holds water though.

Keep up with the discussion, bro.

Crumpp

[Batz]

Everything you need was given to you find out for yourself...

You said C3 could not be used with the Jumo...

Remember your attempt at sarcasm?

I will just run out and put some JP-4 in an engine rated for JP-8, it is after just Jet Fuel and will only require a few adjustments....

You were wrong, pronounced just as its spelled...

You have been wrong 90% of the time the other 10% we will chalk up to luck. But at least in this "discussion" you had no such "luck".

As I suggested numerous times, why dont you just email Bury and ask him?

[Batz]

BTW try reading that fuel llink of yours...(fyi its the same one I posted here and in several threads even in the one a just linked).

[Crumpp]

Batz,

The links you posted went to the Luftwaffe Experten Message board and to a FW-190D-9 Fansite.   I don't remember you posting this link directly.  

Yes I have answered your sarcasm and "prettythanghole" behavoir by returning the favour.  Frankly I could care less if you and Gscholtz ever posted another word to me.  You come across as a know it all jerks who are not right nearly as much as you think you are...


So piss off...




Crumpp

[GScholz]

*LOL* Difference is at least I admit to being wrong.


Don't go away angry Crumpp (you know the rest of the saying).

[Crumpp]

That's load of pompous crap Gschlotz.


Did you admit to being wrong about pilot physiology?  NO

Your right in the "C3" could be used in the Jumo 213.  However the perception you attempted to create that it was a big performance improver was wrong.  You attempted to sell it as common practice when in fact it is an emergency measure when no B4 is available.  Had you been forthright and honest, presenting the facts backed up by documentation (other than the same folks posting on ANOTHER BB or a fanstite) there would have been no discussion.  


And I know your gonna bring up the Norwiegen OSS missions.  I was wrong and I admitted it publically on the board.  I'm way ahead of you.

Crumpp