Author Topic: Please change the way kills are scored.  (Read 2074 times)

Offline romad

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2004, 03:16:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
You really need to look into this a little more. I certainly do agree with the theory but it stinks. I on the other hand see it a different way.

1. When I am the first to hit a con I can blow the stinking crap out of him and him have no visable damage. Not just a few pings but light him up like a wild fire. Then I loose what advantage I have and have to move on. 30 minutes later I get credit for him. I hit him enough to get credeit but not enough to kill him or render him a non-threat!

2. Then I see it the way these guys do. I come in a target that has no apperent damage, light him up with a few pings and then he goes down.....stinking assists.

 Sure the 50% thing seams ok but but its not. The guy getting the 50% deserves credit but its the way the first 50% doesnt cause any unairworthy damage that can get you killed. :(



I had my physics hat on over my first cup of coffee and came to the same conclusion as you did.  Over my second cup I put on my programmers hat and came to a different conclusion:-)

For we players it is fairly intuitive to determine who shot who down.  Problem is, computers are notoriously non intuitive.  Take, for example, a situation where you pound the wing tip to 90% damage with 20MM.  I come along and knock it off with a few .50 hits.  The plane continues flying, albeit in an unstable condition.  Along comes a Spit I and puts a few .303 hits on the planes tail.  The pilot maneuvers, stalls, spins, and augers in.

If this situation occurred within the span of a few seconds during a furball, I would probably have a good claim to the kill, since I took off a big, visible, part of the plane.  Of course, my snapshot would not have taken off the wing tip at all, if you had not hammered on it first.  Then too, the plane may have been able to sneak off on the deck, if the Spit had not forced it to maneuver.

If this occurs over the span of many minutes, with you and I having flown off in another direction, the Spit would have the claim to the kill, since his shots caused the plane to crash.

There are a lot of conditions attached to this one kill, and these conditions must all be tracked over time.  Each series of hits would require more subroutines, numerous loops within the subroutines, many explicit conditional statements within the loops, and a whole lot more variables to track the many hits per minute occurring in the MA.  

If I were doing the programming, I would explain to HiTech that this is a non trivial code change to correct a problem that, statistically, will all average out in the wash:-)

Offline Blammo

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2004, 06:08:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
The system now awards the kill to the person who does the most damage, not how many pings. There is damage done even if the plane is still flying. If you got an assist, it meens that some one else did more damage to the plane than you did, you just happen to put in the last bullet.


Thanks for the explanation HiTech.  However, this leads me to another example from recent history.  One where I know that no prior damage was done.

We are hitting a field and sort of have a cap.  I spot a F6F taking off, swoop on him and fire.  His wing comes off and he starts to fall into the ground.  When I break off a fellow countryman comes if and fires on the wreckage.  It explodes before hitting the ground.  Guess who got the kill?  Not me.  The other guy got it.

Was the F6F viable after I blew its wing off?  Was there any chance they would land safely?  Would my countryman have ever even gotten the shot unless I blew the guys wing off?  The answer to all three is "No".

I understand what you are saying and I understand how it works.  However, it still doesn't seem right to me.  Doesn't seem right when it works against me OR when it works for me.

So, if we are going to consider percentage of damage, let's consider the whole percentage.  In otherwords, if you don't get an out-and-out kill, and only did a portion of the damage, then you should only get a portion of the kill.  Of course, that would probably be more difficult.

Probably a better alternative is a catostrophic damage trigger.  If a part of a plane is destroyed that makes it no longer viable (loss of tail, vertical stabilier, wing, etc.) then the kill is awarded no matter what happens after that point.  If a certain amount is done, but not catostrophic, and then the injured plane crashes, the kill would be awarded like normal.  Since this is basically an "if,then,else" type test, it would keep the overhead down.  Of course, that would depend on how streamlined the current code for kill awarding is.

Anyway, thanks again, HiTech.
BLAMM0 - FACTA, NON VERBA!

Offline Dogsta04

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2004, 06:15:57 PM »
*cough* score potatos *cough*

Offline Blammo

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2004, 08:23:55 PM »
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Originally posted by Dogsta04
*cough* score potatos *cough*


LOL...actually, no.  While I want to get credit for what I shoot down, I also want others to get that same credit.  I don't feel it is very accurrate right now.  Truth is, my own score might suffer if it is changed, but so what.  I would rather know what I can really do and not be deluded into what I think I can do.
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Offline Crumpp

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2004, 09:08:59 PM »
Agreed,


You only should get credit for what you kill not what  flys off and someone else shoots down, crashes, or collides with you.

Crumpp

Offline romad

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2004, 11:37:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blammo
LOL...actually, no.  While I want to get credit for what I shoot down, I also want others to get that same credit.  I don't feel it is very accurrate right now.  Truth is, my own score might suffer if it is changed, but so what.  I would rather know what I can really do and not be deluded into what I think I can do.


A reasonable statement that everyone would agree with, and on 1v1 engagements in the H2H arena, this is exactly what happens.  The problem in the MA is that we have hits from multiple sources on the same target, occurring over various periods of time.  By the time the aircraft finally crashes or explodes, we may have two, three, or more pilots, each with gun camera footage showing hits on the target ... so, who gets the kill?

HiTech (who must have been an engineer in his former life) solves this problem in a very practical way.  He places dataloggers on each aircraft to monitor it's structural integrity.  These dataloggers record pilot x, hitting component y, with z amount of energy, over a polling cycle.  When the aircraft is finally destroyed, it is trivial to determine which pilot inflicted the most damage.  While this may not be perfect, or in some cases intuitive, the result is highly objective.

Another way would be to bring the gun camera footage to the 'O Club, and let the pilots quibble over who really shot down the plane.  A bit more subjective perhaps, but certainly more amusing:-)

Offline Karnak

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2004, 11:56:28 PM »
The only thing that I would like to see is a termination of damage tracking after fatal damage has been inflicted.  Fatal damage would be the loss of the tail, or either wing.

I've made kills while I was engineless and I've brought aircraft home without ailerons in one case and without elevators in a couple of other cases.  I've flown away missing half a wing.  So only the major losses I listed should count, but that should stop the people who shoot at burning, falling wrecks to get the kill.


So, whoever does the greatest percentage of damage up until the aircraft loses a whole wing or the tail.  After that additional damage doesn't count.
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Offline moot

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2004, 03:58:47 PM »
Don't delete proxies, just shorten the distance.  Because you never made maneuver kills doesn't mean no one else did.
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Offline JB42

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2004, 04:13:47 PM »
As a 190 pilot i soemtimes rely heavily on getting an enemy to auger, God knows i cant out turn him or out run him, the best option sometimes is to ride the stall until he loses it. Keep the proxies.
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Offline Furious

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2004, 04:24:08 PM »
If you remove manuever kills, folks will just auger when they get in trouble.

Offline Mak333

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2004, 04:28:48 PM »
Indeed keep proxies.  I love it when banking in a zeke against the wall with a zooming la7 800 on my six, if he's stupid enough, he will make the flat turn with me and collide with the wall =).  But there is an issue about the damage percentage.  Is it scored in the way that the kill goes to the one who did the most damage in the aspect of how "flyable" the plane is?, or how many hit points you have put into it to create significant damage when the next shot is fired into it then tears off a wing?  The issue comes down to putting alot of shots all over the plane, only an elevator and an aileron comes off....But then someone comes along and rips off a wing and the tail in a few shots with mg's or cannons...who gets the kill?  I guess it could go either way, however the kill should really go to the one who tore the plane apart.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 04:46:34 PM by Mak333 »
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Offline SlapShot

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2004, 06:32:32 PM »
Nobody mentioned this scenario ...

Just the other night I was having a nice 1 v 1 stall fight. Getting very sparse snapshots, but still hitting. Nothing really falling of until I get one nice snapshot and an aileron falls of. At this point, he is mine, just a couple more seconds to come around on him and finish him off ....

in swoops an N1K and blows his wing off and he plummets to the ground. Who gets the kill ?

Damn right ... I do ... not the guy who blew his wing off. For every scenario you can describe to try to change what we alreadly have, there is a converse scenario that negates it.
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Offline Karnak

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2004, 07:52:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Nobody mentioned this scenario ...

Just the other night I was having a nice 1 v 1 stall fight. Getting very sparse snapshots, but still hitting. Nothing really falling of until I get one nice snapshot and an aileron falls of. At this point, he is mine, just a couple more seconds to come around on him and finish him off ....

in swoops an N1K and blows his wing off and he plummets to the ground. Who gets the kill ?

Damn right ... I do ... not the guy who blew his wing off. For every scenario you can describe to try to change what we alreadly have, there is a converse scenario that negates it.


Yes, but that is reality (sorta), you must think in terms of programming and how computers work here.  In that case there is really nothing that can be done to address your issue.  AH is simply too dynamic and computers cannot reasonably judge those sorts of things.

To that end, any improvements must be thought of from a programming feasibility standpoint.  Things like changing the range of proximity kills and ending damage tracking with regards to awarding a kill when a definate action, losing an entire wing or tail, has happened are examples of feasible modifications.

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Offline Crumpp

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2004, 08:06:23 PM »
See in my opinion the Niki should get the kill in your scenario.

Crumpp

Offline Ecliptik

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Please change the way kills are scored.
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2004, 08:51:50 PM »
In the interest of justice in gameplay, Slapshot rightfully got the kill, having done all the work.  I've read all the arguements and examples and counter-examples and counter-counter-examples and basically concluded that the current most-damage-gets-kill model would be perfectly great if HTC added progressive performance degradation as your wings and control surfaces get shot up.