Author Topic: what's up with the p38??  (Read 2408 times)

Offline BUG_EAF322

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3153
      • http://bug322.startje.com
what's up with the p38??
« on: June 08, 2004, 09:06:26 PM »
at highspeed dives its nose tucks up??
weird stall flipspins,

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :( :( :eek: :eek:

Offline Rafe35

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2004, 10:29:37 PM »
I use Dive flap while stall badly and recover quickly
Rafe35
Former member of VF-17 "Jolly Rogers"

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2004, 10:57:54 PM »
I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, .. er.. Bug..  but in some planes Combat Trim no longer acts like the way it used to.

 Combat trim, adjust trims according to your speed, so your plane maintains level flight with military power at that speed.

 So, what used to happen is, when a plane dives with CT, the trim keeps trimming your plane down since the speed is going up.

 Now, in some planes, the trim trims your elevator downwards(or is that upwards? always confusing...), but only upto a certain point. If you want to keep your plane level at high speeds, you have to manually trim your plane.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2004, 11:58:29 PM »
Not only that, using Combat Trim in the P-38 pretty much renders the dive flaps useless as the Combat Trim trims to compensate for the nose up pitch the dive flaps give the P-38.



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10227
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2004, 12:12:31 AM »
I just replied to an email Savage sent me about problems he noticed along with other players with the 38.

I would love to get into them now but its quite late here. I will say this though. The 38 we have in AH2 is nothing compared to the 38 we had in AH1. :(

I really hope that this isn't the final version of the FM for the P38.

Morph.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2004, 01:46:57 AM »
Is it that different?

 I'm kinda thinking that the FM change applies to all planes, and thus the relative advantage the P-38 holds is still there.

 I've fought some P-38s in beta, but frankly, now I can't shake them off the tail no matter what I do, if I've been caught in turns under 300mph be it in 109s(or even Spit9 or N1K2s for that matter).

 There's a certain 'threshold' to cross in order to go into slow speed maneuvering in 109s, and you have to stabilize your plane before going under 200 so you can start popping flaps. Except, you have to be flying practically  no stick pull at all and then chop throttle so the speed goes down for flap use.

 Even a slight pull at that critical 200mph border line, will bring the 109s(and most other planes) to stall - and at this point the P-38s seen to decisively outturn any opponent.

 The sensitivity of low-speed flight probably makes it much more difficult to use rudders at low speed, and that's why the slow rolling P-38s seem to have more difficulties since they can't kick rudders to aid roll like they used to.

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2004, 03:42:18 AM »
I've flown the P38 in the Beta quite alot and I love it, feels quite a bit better then in AH, wouldn't know about combat trim though as I don't use it.

Ask Hajo aswell, it's almost the only thing he flies in the Beta.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: what's up with the p38??
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2004, 04:29:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
weird stall flipspins


All the planes have them. I haven't been able to spin any plane like they sre supposed to, they always start a wierd tumbling.

Offline BUG_EAF322

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3153
      • http://bug322.startje.com
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2004, 04:38:54 AM »
welll right now i prefer the FB p38

no matter who else fly it.
The p38 is porked now.

it seems  a lot of wabble flyers trying to talk it good .

nose ups on dive even with ct on cmon its ridiculus.

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2004, 06:47:32 AM »
Well Bug, like I said, from my experience it performs great, noone could catch me when I flew in it last night. Got 7 kills without any problem.

Nose up when CT is on in dives, it's not the only plane that has it obviously, the 190 A8 is another one. Don't use CT, it's a form of easy flight anyway :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2004, 08:59:05 AM »
Wilbus ... I am not worried about someone catching me. The AH II P-38 still has great speed but dogfighting is another story.

I said this in a previous post ...

The flight performance of the P-38, right after they fixed the roll rate bug, was fantastic. Since then, something was changed and the P-38 is not the dogfighter it is in AH I.

To me, it feels as though the AH II P-38 constantly wants to depart from stable flight. I don't use CT and no matter how I trim it out, when dogfighting (trimming accordingly) the stall horn goes off at the slightest pull on the stick and at speeds that I would not expect it to go off.

Stall fighting is completely out of the question, for me, in AH II. As soon as I get slow and throw out flaps in the fight, it flips so easily that I just might as well fly straight and level and let them shoot me.

I am not an expert on the flight characteristics of the P-38, but the FM difference between the AH I version and the AH II version is more apparent and greater than any of the other planes that I fly and would love HTC to take another look at the P-38 parameters.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2004, 09:35:16 AM »
Sorry Slapshot, I expressed my self in a bad way, what I ment with nobody being able to catch me was that nobody was able to get on my six. Not that I could outrun everybody (which I couldn't since there were both LA7's and P51's in the area). Nobody could catch me in the vertical or in turns, my P38, with a slight alt advantage and even without alt advantage, could hold its own while outnumbered. It is specially impressive in the vertical since there is no tourqe IMO and the Hammerheads can be made incredibly fast which no other plane in the intire game can challange.

I just don't agree with you all, it may take some time to get used to I don't know, but it isn't notably porked IMO.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2004, 10:03:37 AM »
Glad its working for you Wilbus ... but its not for me ... wish it was.

I am not going to disagree with what you have said. From my own experiences, while dogfighting, I am constantly fighting to keep it from flipping. Torque is not the problem .. the AH I torque and the AH II torque are the same, so nothing lost ... nothing gained there ... hammerheads included.

Maybe its me ... I don't fly it with CT and am always trimming for the conditions at hand. It is my understanding that the flaps were used while fighting at stall speeds to make the plane more stable ... well I find that dropping flaps is certain death for me. It either "flips" me out of the fight, and at that point I am, for all intents and purposes ... dead ... or when low, I auger.

I don't know if you flew the P-38 right after it was introduced in Beta, and right after the roll rate bug was fixed, but the FM difference between that version of the P-38 and the version we have now are like night and day to me.

My experiences with other planes in AH II have shown me that the new FM has improved the plane, while in the case of the P-38, it has proven to make things worse. It was a thing of beauty before in Beta, now its a death trap.

Like I said before, I am no expert, I am a 2nd rate P-38 pilot at best, but my gut tells me that something is not right. I still fly it, but not with the enthusiasm that I have for it in AH I.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10227
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2004, 11:17:31 AM »
Death trap pretty much sums it up.

I use flaps nearly every fight I get into. Either to get a shot or get into a hard core turn fight with a spit or 51 or really just about any plane I come into contact with.

The first time I realized that the 38 in AH2 wasnt the 38 I've come to know and love was in a turn fight with a spit9. I hit one knotch of flaps... Things just didnt seem right... No big deal though... Then I grabbed for a second knotch... The thing just turned to much. It stalled out went into a spin that took me from 10k all the way down to 2k and nearly planted it in the ground. I was so unhappy with its performance from that point on that I haven't flown it nearly as much as I do in the MA in AH1. It has become the only plane I really enjoy flying. Now with the current state its in its one of those planes thats just a flying coffin.

After that bad stall that took me all the way down to the deck I just logged off and went to fly it off line. I spend about 30 minutes in it trying to do things that I could do very well in AH1 with it. Rolls at extreem slow speeds. Stalls that I could always pull out of or recover from in AH1 I had no chance of regaining control of in AH2.

I really do hope that the 38 is looked into a little more by PYRO or whom ever. I've logged many hours in the 38 in AH1, the few that I've logged in AH2 are enough to tell me its just not the same 38 anymore.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
what's up with the p38??
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2004, 12:11:43 PM »
I'll have to agree with both Slapshot and Morpheus. The P-38 after the roll rate fix was a stone killer. But I'm pretty sure there was a real change either when Pyro said he (changed stall characterstics of all planes) or when the beta patch that allowed settings to transfer from AH I to AH II came out.

I too find myself struggling desperately to keep some speed when maneuvering, hearing the stall buzzer the instant I move the stick, and having those incredibly nasty departures when stalling, even at relatively high speeds and when nose down. It really seems to bleed speed way too fast and accelerate poorly when manuevering. When you get to 200 or so, any stick movement gives you a blaring stall horn. And you never get the speed back anywhere near as fast as you did, even nose down in WEP.

One thing I notice is that it tries to depart sharply to either the left or the right, trying to snap roll into an inverted spin. As you attempt to correct, it instantly goes all the way in the other direction. If you correct for a left roll, it tries to snap hard right. You'll eventually fight this to the ground.

It should simply mush out of a turn, vertical or flat, so long as you don't hold it hard and deep into a stall. The instant it starts refusing to respond, if you release control pressure, it should immediately begin to fly again, and gain speed. That is according to Corky Meyer, Jimmy Mattern, Tony Levier, Ben Kelsey, and John Lowell, along with a host of other P-38 pilots. That is what it was like right after the roll rate was fixed, but it is not now.

That being said, I've been able to adjust to the current version and make it perform half way decent, but not as it should.

Here's a real good example of what I'm complaining about. The other night, I was pursuing a Spitfire 9. As we went over the top, I was diving too steeply, and I pulled up a few degrees to go for the snap shot to help a friendly. The INSTANT I pulled up a few degrees at over 200 knots, it began to try to depart viloently from right to left and back again. Even though I was still nose down, at 200 knots and gaining speed, it absolutely refused to recover. Although I made the snapshot and killed the Spitfire handily, I hit the water ten seconds later.

I do not use Combat Trim in the P-38, and almost never have in the P-38, except at the very start of my time here. The P-38 is a very neutral plane and needs little trim adjusting, according to the above mentioned pilots. And when I stopped using Combat Trim in the P-38, my performance greatly improved in AH I. I do use Combat Trim in some other planes with success.

I've heard one or two people complain about apparent torque effects, but I don't think that is what I'm experiencing at all. And I'm sure no one at HTC would be careless enough to induce torque effects on the P-38 model, they are certainly well aware that the P-38 is a zero net torque plane.

Regarding the nose up habit in a high speed dive, I see that even in AH I, with neutral trim and dive flaps retracted. It pitches up despite pushing the stick forward all the way, even before it buffets. It really should buffet first, and then pitch DOWN, as in Mach Tuck, and should require dive flaps and/or elevator trim up to recover. If I had the kills I set up for in those dives that the pitch up cost me I'd have a whole lot more kills and fewer deaths. I experienced this habit as recently as last night a couple of times.

I appreciate the reply I got from Pyro, and I sincerely hope they take another look at the situation. I'm not going to whine, scream, cry, or demand, I just hope they do revisit the changes made.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe