Nobody can tell me...

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Nash
Sure okay...

The ones you look up to say different than you.

Reflect on that.

Have a good night, and finish yer damn 190!

Nash, honestly I'm done with serious discussion in this thread...

I'm now just quoting from my idol, John Lennon.

Although he is my idol, I do not conform to his visions...I am my own person.  

[Nash]

Lennon thinks this war is a joke.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Toad
Don't forget that in their POV they were just following the "approved" procedure of the colonial Western powers in Asia.

After they whipped the Russians in 1905, they became imperialistic and were even encouraged in that vein. TR suggested that "Korea should be entirelylwithin Japan's sphere of interest". The US certainly wasn't restraining them then.

Roosevelt realised that the Philippines, which he privately termed  "our heel of Achilles," were at the mercy of Japan.

His solution was to cultivate friendly relations with Japan and foster a balance of power between Japan and Russia. In 1905 the Japanese disavowed designs on the Philippines, and TR secretly recognized Japan's power in Korea.  

Roosevelt’s recognition of Korea as within Japanese sphere was one of pragmatism as both China and Japan had claims to the peninsula but the military advantage easily belonged to Japan.

TR also mediated the end to the Russo-Japanese war (where Yamamoto lost some of his fingers) and even though they "whipped" the Russians the war ended with a discussion.

Diplomacy is the art of balancing compromise. I believe your analogy to be stretched.

[NUKE]

Crap Nash...... how could we know that?

[NUKE]

How does it feel to be one of the beatiful people
Now that you know who you are
what do you want to be?

pure freaking genious.

[NUKE]

People asking questions lost in confusion
Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions
Well they shake their heads and look at me as if I've lost my mind
I tell them there's no hurry...
I'm just sitting here doing time

[Toad]

Nope.

I said at the outset, before the war, that I'd support the government position and give them the benefit of the doubt. I also said that I would require proof of their charges after the war or I would not support Bush.

I think Scholz even dug up a quote to that effect very recently.

That's exactly what has happened. That time has come.

I don't think it's a problem of my consistency as much as a problem of you remembering what I actually said.

I think you categorized me early  on and quit listening. Or reading.

**********

Didn't answer the question did you? I asked you what you'd be saying now if you had been wrong and the weapons were there.

You were against the war because you had no proof? Just how wired into the world situation are you? As you said, you went on instinct. In short, you guessed.

Excuse? Surely don't think I need one.  Yeah, I believed my government. Not embarassed by it, either. I think that's better odds bet than instinct.  But they still have to be held accountable.

You won one. Realize it for what it was.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Steve
Yes it does.  The Iraqi's knew full well we were coming.  They didn't have to take up arms.

The 10,000 number isn't war dead, it's the estimated number of civilians that died.  No one knows how many Iraqi combatants died because the CPA halted the counting.

[Nash]

Originally posted by Toad
You won one. Realize it for what it was.

Sure.... common sense. No biggie, and not much effort. Thanks.

Now this part slays me:

"I said at the outset, before the war, that I'd support the government position and give them the benefit of the doubt."

What world are you living in?

"Didn't answer the question did you? I asked you what you'd be saying now if you had been wrong and the weapons were there."

I'd say the same thing as I say now. It would be along the lines of: "Gee! What they said is true! A totally jumbled presentation of specious data that I can't even piece together, but yet it turns out there was something to it afterall. Go figure!"

But alas, in this case, use "nothing to it afterall".

So yeah dude, I guessed.

So did you. So did everyone.

It was never the point. I coulda been right, coulda been wrong. But I said this EXPLICITELY so many months ago (dig up the thread for the exact wording if you want): To send men to die over an unknown, a guess, borders on the criminal.

"You were against the war because you had no proof?"

YES!

Dammit how many times do you need to hear it?

Wars should be for a reason. Proof must be the foundation of that reason. Without proof, there is no foundation. Then all you get is a trainwreck.

"Yeah, I believed my government. Not embarassed by it, either. I think that's better odds bet than instinct.  "

Really now... I don't hold such low expectations of you as you do of yourself.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Thrawn
The 10,000 number isn't war dead, it's the estimated number of civilians that died.  No one knows how many Iraqi combatants died because the CPA halted the counting.

As of June 13, 2004

Iraqbodycount.net max count 11,317

Antiwar.com count of Coalition Troops: American; 833, Rest of Coalition; 116, total; 949

Antiwar.com Iraqi Military Deaths, Maximum Est. 6,370

Total Human Cost of 15 months of Military option: 18,636

Human cost of policy in effect prior to military option:

According to UNICEF, a United Nations agency, the sanctions have contributed to the deaths of 500,000. But the former Iraqi government puts the death toll at a much higher 1.3 million.

"Even the most conservative, independent estimates hold economic sanctions responsible for a public health catastrophe of epic proportions. The World Health Organization believes at least 5,000 children under the age of 5 die each month from lack of access to food, medicine and clean water. Malnutrition, disease, poverty and premature death now ravage a once relatively prosperous society whose public health system was the envy of the Middle East. I went to Iraq in September 1997 to oversee the U.N.'s "oil for food" program. I quickly realized that this humanitarian program was a Band-Aid for a U.N. sanctions regime that was quite literally killing people. Feeling the moral credibility of the U.N. was being undermined, and not wishing to be complicit in what I felt was a criminal violation of human rights, I resigned after 13 months." Denis Halliday, former humanitarian aid coordinator for Iraq (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, February 12, 1999)

between 1991 and 1999 500,000 to 1.3 million.  = 55,000 to 144,000 annually

Take what you want from that, it is just some data I was able to gather.

[Nash]

How many football fields is 1.3 million bodies?

[Holden McGroin]

Football or Soccer?

[Nash]

er I dunno soccer... Just the 100 yard variety.

[Holden McGroin]

They fit 100,000 in to watch the Michigan Wolverines.

[Nash]

Damn!

Okay... Thirteen stadiums of one hundred thousand wiped of the face of the earth to save them from ruthless tyranny.

I bet if ya laid them end to end they would circumnavigate the earth 2.4 times and would be visable from space.