Author Topic: P-38 Still has Problems  (Read 9699 times)

Offline Murdr

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2004, 06:56:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Lockheed's top test pilot even flew demonstrations showing how the P-38 could avoid compressability with the dive flaps but by then the 8th AAF had already made up it's mind.

ack-ack


...with 2000 extra lbs on specified by the Army, to hit the critical speed at a shorter dive, and to make sure the fillets would hold up.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2004, 06:58:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

I fail to see where my assesment of McGuire's last fight is inaccurate.  He stalled it and spun in attempting to get his nose around to save his wingman.  What else do you want to add? He stalled it cause he didn't advance the throttle's at the same time?  Sure I'll play your silly game.  Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.
Crumpp




The only way you snap roll a P-38 inverted like that is assymetric power.   He didn't stall his plane and then spin in.

You should take the time to watch the "flight characteristics of the P-38" (it's an official USAAC training film) up on Zeno's website or the excellent video from the late Jeff Ethel, "How to fly the P-38".  Both films talk about spins relating to the use of assymetric power in the P-38.

Or better yet, if you have a dual throttle you can do it yourself in AH and see how the plane will snap roll inverted.  Nasty thing.


ack-ack
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2004, 07:19:26 AM »
Sure I'll play your silly game. Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.
Crumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2004, 08:15:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Capn Virgil Hilts,

The horsepower rating for the V-1650-3 engine was 950hp at normal power at 29,500 feet.  It's rate of climb at that altitude was little better than 1600 feet a minute, whereas that of the P-47 D series was approximately the same.  Power loadings were nowhere near as similar...that of the Jug being 7.21 pounds per horsepower at 30,000 feet and that of the P-51D (V-1650-7) being better than 10 lbs per horsepower.  This is what contributed to greater maneuverability for the Jug.

Also, this advantage in power loading allowed the P-47 to have a service ceiling a full 5,000 ft. greater than that of the Mustang.  According to German pilots, Me-109Ks also had a higher service ceiling than the Mustang...again because of superior power loadings.


I think you should be directing this reply at Gripen. It is he whom you are discussing this with, and not I.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2004, 08:18:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Sure I'll play your silly game. Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.
Crumpp


Whatever you wish to think Crumpp.  The facts have been presented, think what you will. Further debate with you is pointless. Oh, and using one single incident is hardly the way to assess what you are attempting to. But then you knew that already, or at least should have. But continue to choose and present only the "evidence" that you like.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2004, 08:31:54 AM »
So what do want me to say Capt'n??

That he FLEW his plane in smaller and smaller circles until he reached the green earth?

Ohh you are right!  Losing lift on the wings because of assymetrical power really is not stalling the plane.  It's flying it in a really small circle.

Assymetrical power is the cause of the stall.  Trying to get his nose around to save his wingman is the reason he applied assymetrical power.  Which changes nothing to my original statement.


Sure I'll play your silly game. Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.
Crumpp

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #171 on: July 01, 2004, 09:57:09 AM »
My assesment of that incident, and many will agree with me, is that it was caused by McGuire's decision to hold his drop tanks, and he would most likely not have crashed if he would have followed proper plane managment proceedure before entering combat.

Offline gripen

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« Reply #172 on: July 01, 2004, 03:43:51 PM »
Shuckins,
Normal rating for the V-1650-3 is at 2700rpm, combat and military ratings are at 3000rpm. Comparable outputs with high speed RAM at 30k for the  P-51B-1 and P-47D-10 (note that D-10 had the GE C-23 turbo) are following (From "Tactical Employment Trials North Americamn P-51B-1", Appendix of the "Mustang Story" by Ken Delve contains this report):

P-51B-1 1200hp (61" 3000rpm)
P-47D-10 2200hp (56" 2700rpm)

In addition the P-51 utilized exhaust thrust which in the case of the P-47D was used in the turbo.

AHT shows speed and climb values just up to 30k (the FTH of the P-47D ie the altitude where the turbo reaches it's limits), the interesting part is what happens above 30k. Again speed values from above mentioned source:

30k P-51 433mph, P-47 433mph
31k P-51 432mph, P-47 430mph
32k P-51 431mph, P-47 427mph
33k P-51 430mph, P-47 422mph
34k P-51 428mph, P-47 415mph
35k P-51 425mph, P-47 405mph (P-47 curve ends to 35400ft)
36k P-51 422mph
37k P-51 418mph
38k P-51 414mph
39k P-51 408mph
40k P-51 400mph

The P-51 could maintain it's performance much better than P-47D above FTH. The climb curve of the P-47D-10 ends to 30k but there is no reason to believe that it behaves differently than speed curve if compared to the P-51B-1. What can be certainly said is that at 25k the P-51B climbed better than P-47D and at 30k they were about equal. Above that altitude the P-51B probably climbed better because it could maintain it's performance better. Generally climb speed is much better indicator for sustained maneuverability than powerloading.

The P-51B with the V-1650-3 had about same service ceiling as the P-47D ie around 40k depending on source.

Hilts,
The role of the NACA in the developement of the dive recovery flaps is well documented. From NASA site:

"In March 1942, after less than four months of tests in Langley's 8-Foot HST, Stack's engineers reported that they had an answer to the P-38's dive-recovery problem: a wedge-shaped flap installed on the lower surface of the aircraft's wings. They said that their tunnel tests showed that wings having this flap would retain enough lift at high speeds to enable a pilot to pull the plane out of steep dives.5 Langley then turned the dive-recovery program over to its sister facility in California-Ames Aeronautical Laboratory at Moffett Field-where the flap idea could be proved sound to nearby Lockheed more expeditiously than at faraway Langley. Further tests in Ames's new 16-Foot HST did prove the idea sound: NACA-style dive-recovery flaps eventually saw service not only on the P-38 but also on the P-47 Thunderbolt, the A-26 Invader, the P-59 Airacomet (America's first jet), and the P-80, the first U.S. airplane designed (by Lockheed) from the beginning for turbojet propulsion."

Ack-Ack,
Basicly dive recovery flaps did two things:

1. Added positive pitch moment to counter tuck under.
2. Added considerably amount of drag to keep plane out of trouble.

The dive recovery flaps did not change the speed where the tuck under phenomena started nor prevented other compressibility problems. All this is well documented in the above mentioned sources.

gripen

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #173 on: July 01, 2004, 05:55:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Sure I'll play your silly game. Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.
Crumpp



Hmmm...record starting to skip there?  Or you just can't face the fact that you're wrong, which is something that I'd think you'd be quite used to by now.  Or are the ledenhosen riding up a little and cutting off the blood circulation?




ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #174 on: July 01, 2004, 06:18:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen


Ack-Ack,
Basicly dive recovery flaps did two things:

1. Added positive pitch moment to counter tuck under.
2. Added considerably amount of drag to keep plane out of trouble.

The dive recovery flaps did not change the speed where the tuck under phenomena started nor prevented other compressibility problems. All this is well documented in the above mentioned sources.

gripen



Actually the drag from the dive flaps was caused from the nose up pitch of the plane.  P-38 pilots would use the dive flaps at high speeds to help in turning but had to be careful and not keep them deployed too long because the nose up pitch would cause them to lose E pretty quickly.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #175 on: July 01, 2004, 06:36:51 PM »
Quote
My assesment of that incident, and many will agree with me, is that it was caused by McGuire's decision to hold his drop tanks, and he would most likely not have crashed if he would have followed proper plane managment proceedure before entering combat.



And that changes :


Quote
Sure I'll play your silly game. Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.



HOW?

Crumpp

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2004, 06:51:34 PM »
Quote
Actually the drag from the dive flaps was caused from the nose up pitch of the plane. P-38 pilots would use the dive flaps at high speeds to help in turning but had to be careful and not keep them deployed too long because the nose up pitch would cause them to lose E pretty quickly.


 I always wondered about this. How large would the pitch-up movement be with the diveflaps deployed?

 In AH2, really honestly, I don't feel any kind of difference in handling whether they are applied or not(I don't use CT).

 In FB/AEP, the diveflaps virtually make the plane do a loop all by itself when deployed. It feels like the elevator trim suddenly maxed out to the top.

 So which depiction would be more correct? Or would it be somewhere in between??

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2004, 07:55:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen


Ack-Ack,
Basicly dive recovery flaps did two things:

1. Added positive pitch moment to counter tuck under.
2. Added considerably amount of drag to keep plane out of trouble.

The dive recovery flaps did not change the speed where the tuck under phenomena started nor prevented other compressibility problems. All this is well documented in the above mentioned sources.

gripen


Dont leave out the upper surface shock that causes compression in the first place.  Dive recovery flaps effectively change the shape of the foil.  To be effective they have to be located so that the change in airflow moves the formation of the upper surface shock farther back on the upper surface.  Without that effect positive pressure remains soley on the top of the wing instead of the bottom.  They do not change the speed where the shock waves are formed.  However up to a critical speed they allow lower surface pressure to be greater than the upper surface, where it would not without the flaps.  As the speed increases the shock moves forward.

If anyone asked me, which they didnt, ;) that is what they do, and is what distinguishes a "dive flap" from a "dive recovery flap"

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #178 on: July 01, 2004, 08:03:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 So which depiction would be more correct? Or would it be somewhere in between??

Somewhere in between, as it was described to my by a 38 pilot.  It was appearently not inperceptible as it is modeled in AH.

Offline gripen

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« Reply #179 on: July 01, 2004, 11:32:28 PM »
Ack-Ack and Murdr,
It would help a lot if you  actually understand what the report says:

"The outboard dive recovery flaps produced favorable shift in trim by decreasing the angle of attack for the zero lift and increasing downwash on the tail, but did not alter the the mach number the diving tendency developed"

Note the part on angle of attack (Ack-Ack) and part on diving tendency (Murdr), this can be confirmed from the graphs too.

For wind tunnel data on drag you should get that DSIR 23/15088. Here is some numbers from that report:

mach       clean        flaps
0,5        0,030        0,034
0,6        0,035        0,05
0,65       0,042        0,10


At mach 0,65 the dive recovery flaps doubled the drag.

gripen