Author Topic: For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH  (Read 827 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2004, 08:42:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I would call it a tie.  The US won it's objectives at sea, but they didn't succeed in meeting thier goal of annexation of British North American territroy.


Who told you the goal of the war was to annex British North American territory? If the U.S. had had such a goal, then they'd have started the war by attacking England first.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline hawker238

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2004, 09:05:26 AM »
Virgil was there.  Virgil knows.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2004, 09:12:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hawker238
Virgil was there.  Virgil knows.



No, Virgil was not there. However, Virgil did study SOME history, and from what he read ENGLAND started the War of 1812.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Cerceuilvolant

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2004, 10:19:17 AM »
Haha, that was great. I wanted to push you in this **** pool and you jumped in it! :aok

You showed me that you loved to play with poo

Offline Thrawn

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2004, 02:56:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Wasn't the objective to get the British to stop enslaving Americans as seamen in the Navy?


Yes, but you aren't going to do that by attacking Upper and Lower Canada.


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That's what started it all, IIRC.


Yep, the British (and I believe also France to a degree) didn't respect US neutrality.  And there is the incident regarding the Chespeake.  Totally justifiable war in my opinion.

Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Who told you the goal of the war was to annex British North American territory?


I didn't say it was the goal.  I said it was a goal.


"The seat of anti-British fever was in the Northwest and the lower Ohio Valley, where the land-hungry frontiersmen had no doubt that their troubles with the Indians were the result of British intrigue. Stories were circulated after every Indian raid of British Army muskets and equipment being found on the field. By 1812 the westerners were convinced that their problems could best be solved by forcing the British out of Canada.

While the western "war hawks" urged war in the hope of conquering Canada, the people of Georgia, Tennessee, and the Mississippi Territory entertained similar designs against Florida, a Spanish possession. The fact that Spain and England were allies against Napoleon presented the southern war hawks with an excuse for invading Florida. By this time, also, the balance of political power had shifted south and westward; ambitious party leaders had no choice but to align themselves with the war hawks, and 1812 was a Presidential election year."

...

"The fundamental strategy was simple enough. The primary undertaking would be the conquest of Canada. The United States also planned an immediate naval offensive, whereby a swarm of privateers and the small Navy would be set loose on the high seas to destroy British commerce. The old invasion route into Canada by way of Lake Champlain and the Richelieu River led directly to the most populous and most important part of the enemy's territory. The capture of Montreal would cut the line of communications upon which the British defense of Upper Canada depended, and the fall of that province would then be inevitable. But this invasion route was near the center of disaffection in the United States, from which little local support could be expected. The west,"

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/amh-06.htm
 


Quote
If the U.S. had had such a goal, then they'd have started the war by attacking England first.


No, they would have attacked Upper and Lower Canada, like they did.  There was no way in hell that the US could have invade and conqure England.  But looking at the numbers involve the US certainly could have conqured British North America.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 03:14:42 PM by Thrawn »

Offline hawker238

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2004, 02:58:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
No, Virgil was not there. However, Virgil did study SOME history, and from what he read ENGLAND started the War of 1812.


Hawker hear's ya.  Hawker don't care.

Offline FUNKED1

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2004, 03:03:31 PM »
Funkypants hears you.  Funkypants puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Offline Toad

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2004, 03:15:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Yes, but you aren't going to do that by attacking Upper and Lower Canada.


It started as a naval war and spread. Not so unusual, especially in those times. War is war; I don't think they would have agreed to just keep it on the water.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thrawn

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2004, 03:22:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
It started as a naval war and spread. Not so unusual, especially in those times. War is war;


I kind of agree.  The cause of the war was on water.  The declaration of war was by Madison.  And his war plan included the invastion of BNA.


Quote
I don't think they would have agreed to just keep it on the water.


Histroy shows this to be true.  If you look at the sacking of Washington, the Battle of New Orleans etc.  But I don't think that forces in BNA were a threat to the US.  Perhaps there might have been some peacemeal attack, but the British couldn't even hold Washington.  And when the position of the "war hawks" is taken into account, it seems pretty clear that the invasion of BNA was ment as a conquering and not a pre-emptive strike, so to speak.  

I wish I knew were I could get my hands on some source docs on the internet for this issue.

Offline Toad

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2004, 03:28:35 PM »
I don't think "threat" has anything to do with it.

It started over impressment. Once it started, beating the enemy and taking as much of his land/resources as you could became the goal. That's pretty much the way they did it then.

Didn't see too many countries get into a war, beat the doo-dah out of someone and then send people and money to rebuild the country of the vanquished.

It was different then. "To the victor go the spoils." How politically incorrect!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2004, 06:03:23 PM »
Sounds good to me.

Offline hawker238

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For George W. Bush, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2004, 06:17:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Funkypants hears you.  Funkypants puts on his robe and wizard hat.


Haha, beautiful.