Realistic German Markings?

[Dancer]

Sascha,
ja, danke!

For the rest:
There is a very good article available
(in german only - sorry) at:
 http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/special/game/6489/1.html

The authority I talked above is called:
"Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften"
You can reach their web-site at:
 http://www.bmfsfj.de/bpjs/

Unfortunately thy don't have english pages,
too, but maybe babelfish can give you
an idea...

Dancer out.

[panda]

Interestingly, I bought a 1/48 Tamiya 109e the other day (in Australia) and all the packaging and instruction sheets had the Hakenkreuze scrubbed out. But there they were on the decal sheet, with placement details, in case you happened not to have no problem with them (I prefer to think of the swastika in its earlier incarnation, as a Buddhist/Sanskrit symbol of good fortune)

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[miko2d]

 koala, you should read the posts carefully yourself, before accusing others of inattention.

 There is no German or any censorship here. HTC is a private american company and they decided not to put the swastikas in the artwork. If you do not like their decision, tough luck.

 The reasons why they did that are their own. Even if they did that JUST to have less troubles selling their game in Germany, it is very PRACTICAL just to remove that symbol from German planes. No need to distribute/verify different texture files and servers, etc. It is not like you are going to confuse the Bf109 with other planes because of that.
 Most of us here are flight simmers. We care about relevant realism stuff - flight model, tactics, even camouflage scheme (because it affects visibility), etc.
 Not only swastikas are way down on the list of the realism issues, there are few considerations:
 1. If AH becomes one of the very few games that allow it's display and being a public forum, it may attract people who would play just to be able publicly carry that symbol and not care about flight sims that much.
 I am sure we are going to have our share of offensive individuals without them.
 2. Many people will not play the game bacause of that symbol. There are quite a few people to whom it is still much more personal then just a historical symbol of a fallen empire.
 3. There could be problems with selling that game in Germany, as you have mentioned.

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 10-14-1999).]

[Downtown]

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Fishu
Junior Member   posted 10-13-1999 01:36 PM              
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That symbol in Finnish Brewster buffalos should be symbol of the Finnish Air Force, from the time before nazi swastikas, till end of second world war.
(that symbol is blue against white roundel)
If im not wrong, it's the original symbol of FAF.
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Yes I knew that,

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panda
Junior Member
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I prefer to think of the swastika in its earlier incarnation, as a Buddhist/Sanskrit symbol of good fortune.

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I knew this also, though the exterior lines pointed the opposite direction on the symbol used by the German National SOcialist.  I believe I read that Hitler did this as a desacration to the afore mentioned symbol.

Most people are unaware of these facts, uninformed, and ignorant, and therefore would see the FAF Symbol and start to have a cow, just like the did when they saw the Native American Symbol on the floor of the building here in Michigan.

I personally am not offended by the Symbol used by the German National Socialist.  I am more preturbed by the actions of individuals who use race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, education, Etc... Etc... as an excuse to Hate, harm, or deny freedoms or rights to other individuals.

Ignorance, censorship, and slander are the tool of the hate monger.  I prefer to be aware, open minded, and avoid prejudice.

I have an honest streak that is not well accepted either, but it was the way I was raised.

It is rather depressing to see the increase in Hate Crimes, not only in the U.S. but around the world.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

[ft]

I find it odd how many people find revisionism OK as long as it is in the "right direction". Outlaw swastikas? The only thing that does is make the symbol more powerful for the neo-nazis.

Here in Sweden they're not outlawed (of course) but we have a law against harassing groups of people. People wearing swastikas or other nazi symbols are charged under this law instead - and convicted. I think this makes a lot more sense. It's not the symbol which is dangerous, it is the ways in which it can be used.

As for suggesting that people would play Aces High just in order to be able to (sort of) publicly wear swastikas... I'll just assume there was an invisible smiley after that one as the idea is clearly about as far away from the world of Things that Make Sense(tm) as you can get.  

My 16 Swedish öre again.

Cheers,
   /ft

[kapsyl]

The finnish swastika goes back to 1918 when the swedish count Eric von Rosen donated the FAF:s first aircraft : a Thulin D used for reconnaissance.It was his lucky sign.
   
The swastika colour was blue.

kapsyl



[This message has been edited by kapsyl (edited 10-17-1999).]

[Gadfly]

All you boys thinking that the USA would never do sumpin like ban the Swastika should read the papers more.

There is a certain symbol that is banned/being banned as we speak.

The batle flag of the confederacy, which many high schools(Team mascot-"The Rebels") use as a banner is almost totally banned in the south.

Is it right?  who knows, but it it is the fact of the matter, so beware what you proclaim against Germany.

Personally, a symbol can only have the connotation you yourself attach to it, so I think there should be no banning of any symbol.


This is a supposed Historical Sim, the planes it is modeling had the swastika, hence the game should too.

[weazel]

We all have our opinions on the swastika and how/if it should be displayed. The symbol of the Finnish Air Force has a proud heritage/tradition behind it,ditto for the native American symbol mentioned. Personally I dont have a problem with either of them,but-when it comes to the German variety I do take exception to it. The world suffered greatly at the hands of the cowardly Nazi party who chose it to represent their ideology and out of the respect for the people who fought or died due to them I dont think it has any place in the world-except for history books. I`m German by heritage and really dig the German aircraft of WW II,but every one on my H/D has been altered by Photoshop.
 

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[Sascha JG 77]

Funny, I never realized that the rebel flag was banned, especially not in the southern U.S.
I have a rebel flag in my apartement back from the old days (high school), mostly because it's a symbol of the music that came from down there (rockabilly, etc.).

In Germany a lot of people have car stickers with the rebel flag on em, especially truck drivers that watched "Smokey and the bandit" or "Convoy" too often.    
I don t even think that these guys realize that the dixie flag might be offensive to some guys.
About two years ago I went to an american diner in Munich. We rode there on our motorbikes and since it was a little cold that day I wore a bandana that had the rebel flag on it. I sat at the table and the manager came up to me and kindly asked me to take it off cause he had black guys working in his place. Funny thing was that HE knew why I wore the flag (and it wasn t illegal to do so, we were in Germany), but he said that his employees prolly wouldn t understand, so I took it off since I didn t wanna offend these guys.

I never even heared that it was illegal over here, and we are very strict concerning flags with dubious background. The German Imperial Battleflag from WW1 is banned over here too BTW and it has no swastika on it, since it represents imperialist Germany.

Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"



[This message has been edited by Sascha JG 77 (edited 10-18-1999).]

[Gadfly]

It is not illegal, per se, just not allowed on display at public facilities(well, actually, some states still utilize it in thier state flags, but they are going away quickly).

[panda]

Downtown:
just a small point, but I have seen the swastika used in a Buddhist context both ways 'round, in Chinese and Japanese and Tibetan flavours of the religion.

As a side note, is anyone familiar with a US car manufacturer in the 1920's which used the swastika? I seem to recall seeing a reference somewhere...

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[Downtown]

There is another name, Swastika, is what most people recognize.

I have heard the other name for the Budhist symbol only used in Context with the Swastika.

That is why I use "The Symbol of the German National Socialist Party"

The only thing I am really opposed to is Mark David Chapman, the guy that shot John Lennon.

I think the Swastika should be there, and people should be taught what it symbolized and what it cost.

Same with the Flag of the Confederate States of America.  People who Proclaim themselves Rebels, yet have no clue what a "Real Rebel" was are IMHO Pathetic.

You can choose to express your individuallity be being one of the 1,000,000 people who got a pierced lip, eyebrow, nose, Etc.  You can claim to be a Rebel, and not come from a State that attempted to Sucede from the Govenment of the United States, or a Church that was created to RECOGNIZE that people with darker colored skin are inferior to people with lighter colored skin.  I don't really care.

The people who worry me, are the ones who don't just cling to the symbols based on ignorance, its the ones who believe that harming others because of some Belief in these symbols.

To show how bad things are, recently on Comedy Centrals "The Man Show" the hosts got a petition together, and got women to sign the Petition to End Womens Sufferage.

Most of us here know history, we want historical accuracy.  I choose not to believe in these SYMBOLs hence they don't offend me.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I also don't want to be limited because of what may offend other people.

Personally I can do without "Swastikas" on my LW aircraft.  But lets not forget they were there.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemd to repeat it!"

Lets remember they were there, and what they stood for, and lets make an effort to never let something like this happen again.

Promote Information, help stamp out ignorance.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

[Werewolf]

Well the old discussion again. Just stating my opinion here:

The swastica is a very old symbol used by many cultures long time ago. It has been used in Europe and some countries of Asia as a symbol for the sun. Some politicians of my country used it for their perverted political ideas and therefore - especially here in Germany - some politicans think they have to ban the symbols of former agression of our country. Strange! Literature, insignias and other stuff are forbidden by law but it is our history. We have to deal with it and we have to know it. Anybody who is intelligent enough and who has read "Mein Kampf" and reads it related to history will see the perversion of the political ideas of the author and his regime.
Alas not many will have the possibility to read it and make their mind up. If some of those dumb people would have done earlier, maybe they would not have become followers of a long dead political idea.

Well, nothing more to say. Maybe just that not allowing something to a person will raise his interest and non-reflected thinking about history.

Check 6

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"

(Originally the name has been "Das Reich", but we changed it in order not to offend anyone)

[kai]

Whats this talk about being offended by a painted symbol on an airplane. It's a game, it should have been realistic as possible together with the markings. If swastika offends some, the usaf star should offend germans as those were flying over Dresden at the end of the war when that civilian city, without any military significance, was fire bombed for a couple of days by waves of bombers. Hundreds of thousands of civilians who fled to that city perished in the inferno.

The confederate flag is not illegal yet, the loudmouths at the naacp are boycotting the state of South Carolina because that flag is the official state flag and it is supposedly offending to them. What is the naacp gonna do, boycott the state? why not show some black solidarity and have all negros move out of the state? great! I'll pack up in a minute and move there as that state will become the safest and nicest place to live in the whole country. They recently held a protest rally in SC, whining and whining about evil flag. So few days after that, on oct16, a mob of more than a dozen Blacks attacked two Whites, Troy Knapp, 35, and Gary Thornburg, 34, injuring Thornburg and leaving Knapp in a coma.  "Yeah, we are going to get us a white boy" the mob of blacks screamed. Knapp and Thornburg were riding their bikes several blocks from the school when they a Black mob attacked them. Of course you haven't said a word about this hate crime, the controlled media makes sure only the facts that fit in are reported, imagine if a group of skinheads attacked a black, all you would hear is shrieking about hate and white supremacy, Clinton would gave his radio address and condemn white racism, Janet Reno would say she was sending the FBI to assist with fighting the white supremacist hate group.

But two attacked were white boys, it wasn't reported, so don't worry about it, it wasn't a hate crime.

I noticed Downtown speak so passionately about hate, I wonder if he is outraged about this act of hatred.

[koala]

Sigh.

Pyro, please remove this thread. I regret having started it.

ko