Author Topic: Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..  (Read 1437 times)

Offline Downtown

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
      • http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2000, 09:06:00 PM »
BTW another rook who must have seen most of the fight between Pang and I commented on how cool it looked.

I also got congradulated on an HO pass at a Nik, but I was low, and he was High, and I didn't have the speed to run away, so I flipped him the bird as he killed me. I just got lucky and took his wing.

------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!

Offline Dingy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
      • http://www.33rd.org
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2000, 06:57:00 AM »
 
Quote
BTW I don't think Dingy meant me, he mentioned an enemy P51 pilot.

You are quite correct Sorrow.  I did not mean you, I was referring to Yo.  

I also had a chance to fite Downtown in 51s last nite!  That was another interesting fite!  It shows what happens when a smart pilot (Downtown) with more E gets on the six of a lesser pilot (me) using "interesting evasives".  I was able to use a sideslip to blow LOTS of E quick and Downtown quickly blew past me.  Was he in mortal danger?  Of course not.  He pulled up into a verticle zoom climb which I then tried to follow.  Since he had so much more E than me, I quickly wallowed at which point he came back down and killed me as was trying to regain control.  

E kills.

-Ding

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2000, 08:05:00 AM »
Anyone ever notice how INTENSE the game gets in those 15-60 seconds of "I know I'm going to die", but you fight like a "White Banshee" trying not to get splashed?

Those 15-60 seconds last so long, when you are in the silk, you say to yourself "Dang! I'm tired, that lasted forever".

More to get the "Kill", but that ain't so UN FUN either.  

Mino

Offline DoctorYO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 696
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2000, 08:31:00 AM »
Hangtime,

Be happy... I know it sucks up in Long Island this time of year but don't take your bad day as the jump on the flame Doctor Yo bandwagon...  This thread originaly was a nice pleasant exchange of complements which was turned into a whinning match of opinuated fact.

This was one of the first actual decent threads on this BB as opposed to whinning and crying about aircraft and flight models..


It caused me pain when someone whinned and I put my two cents in..  Now you get involved and I need my wading boots from all the dung comming out of your mouth. You even did the dreaded cut and paste technique of dweebism.

This is starting to remind me of a Linux/NT debate of complete nonsense and biased opinions.

Didn't you get your so savored kill last night when I was low and slow..  You even tried to taunt but I gave you no satisfaction...(last night I thought your "nice break" was advice or complement but this morning after reading you dung post I can see it was only a trivial attempt to taunt me.)

Some advice "Pipe Down" a bit its better for your heart.

8D     8D     8D    8D   smiles make you live longer........


Regards,


DoctorYO

PS: of course you need to have the last post(its in your Tristate Area Gene Code) so put in your dweeb comment.. and don'y worry I wont post on this thread no more..

"good riddens DoctorYO,your rebel scum"



Offline Razer

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
      • http://www.fshangar.org
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2000, 08:58:00 AM »
Hey it's hangtime..  

Well i to will have to agree.  The night i started back playing AH i took off in my trusty P51 "Nick named the Wildride if anyone cares" and turned towrad a base. about halfway there i came across 5 bad guys with only 2 of my guys. So i turned down on them and figured i'd help them out. Well after pulling in behind 2 bad guys following one of my guys, i desided to take them out.  after picking off the closest guy to me. i took out the other guy and turned to find out what happen to my 2nd guy. After finding him running low being chased. i turn on the bad guy chasing him and opened up with everything i had. The plane lost a wing and rolled in. I then turned back to see another guy coming in from above. I looped back to get off a good burst, it was enough to get him smoking and i think he lost some parts too.  He flew for a bit but then crashed before i can give him anymore lead.  With one of my other guys getting the 5th guy i turned back to base since i was now winchester. went back to base and landed.  My first night back to AH was the best mission i have flown inthe game yet.

AH has me hooked again...

Raz

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2000, 09:24:00 AM »
I'm not going to get into the trash talking, "you suck" , "no , YOU suck", part of this thread.

But from a purely tactical point of view, I have to disagree with this statement.

 
Quote
. Give me that situation and 2 gun passes. How you ask? simple throttle chop.. All three of you never chopped throttle and locked on to my tail like you should have and I exploited your excess speed by using the ground as a corner to back myself into. I bought myself 35-45 secs after initial engagement, but due to knights inferior numbers help never came.. All in all you were finally victorious and thats how it goes usually in a 3 on 1, but don't expect me to say nice kill when you spray and pray and then make questionable comments to boot.

I guess if your sole objective is to "get that kill" you may be right.

But to me, the great pilots are ones who get kills, and then get home to land them.

To me the pilot that got 50 kills in a tour, and only died 5 times, is a much better pilot that got 350 kills but died 200 times.

This is pervasive misconception in AH pilots. Many compare kills, but they neglect to look at how many times they died getting those kills. Typical Turn & Burn mentality.

If you are engaging an enemy who is both lower and slower than you are, it is downright stupid to give up that advantage, by chopping throttle and dropping onto his 6 to "lock in". Especially if he is flying a P-51, F4U, or Fw190.

Here's why:

1.) He can now reverse on you. Why give him the chance? He can't reverse if you have both Altitude and E, unless you let him. And a smart pilot will never let him.

2.) You are now in the exact same energy/positional state that he is in.  In other words if you thought he was "easy meat". You now just put yourself into the exact same position for any of his buddies that come along during the fight.

3.) Who cares if the guy buys himself 30-45 seconds? Dead is dead. And now you have a superior position for the next fight, or for your extension or rtb.

4.) If his buddies show up on the horizon, you actually have the ability to dis-engage yourself from the fight you are in, and extend to the support of friendlies or a base. Or as Juzz likes to call it "Run like a Screaming little Girl"  

Yes, I know many of you find this style of flying boring. But this is what the reality of real WWII ACM was all about.

"Live to Fight another day"

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires   "

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 01-12-2000).]

spinny

  • Guest
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2000, 09:57:00 AM »
'Or as Juzz likes to call it "Run like a Screaming little Girl" '

Why pick on little girls? I've always liked what the DI said in Battle Cry, "...then take off like a striped-ass ape"  

------------------
Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X


Offline Swager

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1352
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2000, 11:14:00 AM »
But did they have as much fun?  

My belief is not to judge the quality of a pilot by their K/D ratio.

Many of my deaths have been from taking off from a vulched field in a vain attempt to keep it from being captured. Just something I like to do!  

The other deaths come from pilots, both with high and low K/Ds, blowing me out of the sky.  

Oh!  I also crash alot!!  

Trust me there are some top notch pilots out there with even or low K/D ratios.  (Even being 1).

Yes, one of the main objectives is not to die.

With this said it comes down to what a certain individual is looking for in a combat flight simulation. What is that person's definition of fun?  What is the flying style?
What keeps that person comming back time and time again? It is not always the high K/D.

Just my thoughts.    Have a nice day!!    




------------------
Damn Ghostrider!  This bogey is all over me!!
Rock:  Ya see that Ensign, lighting the cigarette?
Powell: Yes Rock.
Rock: Well that's where I got it, he's my son.
Powell: Really Rock, well I'd like to meet him.
Rock:  No ya wouldn't.

Offline dolomite

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2000, 11:25:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Swager:
But did they have as much fun?  

-snip-
With this said it comes down to what a certain individual is looking for in a combat flight simulation. What is that person's definition of fun?  What is the flying style?
What keeps that person comming back time and time again? It is not always the high K/D.

Just my thoughts.    Have a nice day!!    



Perfectly stated! S!


Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2000, 12:41:00 PM »
Having fun is a personal preference. Do what you want and have fun   I am not trying to tell you to fly my style.  And I much admit that flying to live is somewhat drier. And no K/D is not everything. But getting the intended job done in the most efficent manner is what is important.

Also it is not a matter of flying style. You can TnB, E Fight, or BnZ, all with the intent too live. In fact the most deadly plane in the arena is someone who flies a Spitfire, in a vertical style like a 109.

Personally, I see taking off from a vulched field a bad choice as a pilot, you would have been much more effective in defense by taking off from a rear field. So here I wouldn't judge anyone a bad pilot because they died, but because they were less effective than they could have been in their stated intent of defending the field.

So how would you judge a "good" pilot? By the number of kills? Yes I see some names mentioned as being "killer pilots" because their name shows up in the kill buffer alot. Ironically, they also show up alot under the "was killed" category too.

But are they a good pilot, or a good gunner/shot? If your a good shot, you can easily take a Fw190 and N1K2 and dive into the fur and rake in the kills. But IMO a good pilot would have gotten out of that alive to go home and land those kills  

Its easy to sit back and pick apart my definition     So tell me yours, what makes a good pilot? And provide examples.

But lets go back to my original intent of my post on the Tactics of the fight under discussion. The topic wasn't about what is the most fun way to conduct a aerial fight, the topic was which was the better way to kill the bandit low and slow on the deck.

So you would say that its better to "lock in" on the enemy's six that is low and slow?

FYI: I don't think of myself as a good pilot either, I don't fly enough hours to keep up a razor sharp edge. I make bad judgements, die when I shouldn't, and like you Swager about half of my current deaths are crackups on takeoff and landings (strangely, mostly on takeoff).  Another point to consider is that even after 6 years of flying I still have incredibly horrible gunnery. So this is definitely not a "I'm better than you are post".    

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires   "

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 01-12-2000).]

Offline dolomite

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2000, 01:07:00 PM »
I don't think that anyone meant to offend you, Vermillion. I think (at least the way I read it) Swager was trying to point out that being a good pilot isn't necessarily tied to living or dying strictly. Moreover, he hinted that while flying to live is good, it can be boring. I find that furball flying can teach me ACM faster (in some ways) than the lone, high-alt missions that I often do.

What is a good pilot? To me, it is the one that can kill you anytime he wishes. I respect those with high K/D ratios, and for a time I was doing pretty fair at it. But in the end, I am having far more fun, and becoming much more proficient, by wading into the fights with different aircraft. I am learning what works and what doesn't. After this is no longer beta, and if I'm so inclined, I will look at the scores more. As it stands, I feel reasonably competent to mix it up in any aircraft with any other aircraft and know what to do to win.

When I fly high all I learn is to stay high and pounce.  

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2000, 01:33:00 PM »
Verm your post had this in the signature:
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfire"

I fly both, what would I be, a Real Nancy Man?  

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
"Whats this button for?"

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2000, 02:04:00 PM »
Dolomite: I didn't get offended     Was just debating the subject at hand. It takes alot more than that to piss me off  

Ripsnort: Nahhh....   your still a Nancy Boy, until you totally give up that crutch of a dweebfire and move over to a manly plane   Just kidding.

Actually I used that line one day in the arena, to taunt someone who was bragging about how good of a pilot they were... in a Spitfire.

I got so many laughs and funny comments on it, that I thought it would make a great signature.

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2000, 03:14:00 PM »
LOL Sorrow.. OK; per your request; an account of the Monday night fight in the canyon.

Sorrow was in an La5; headed from f16 to f5, about 2k over the canyonland plateau when we spotted him. I was (as always) in a P51 with Dingy in trail (also P51)  at co-alt with the La5; closing headon at D6. Above us was Rude; also a P51; who had called the con and had started a diving attack. The La5 made a smart reversal, and Rude; having a substantial head of steam on; pulled back up high to bleed some E. Meanwhile; the La5, noting our close proximity (about d3 at this point) ducked into the canyon. Right about here my ears perked right up… having the better turnfighter but being outnumbered the La5 has elected to use the terrain to equalize the situation. Since this is exactly what I would have done; I figured we had a good fight brewing..

As Dingy and I pursued; the la5 made another reversal; bringing guns on both of us.. declining a direct HO, Dingy broke right; I went left. When I got my eyeballs on the la5 again he was saddling up on Dingy. Dingy pulled a bit up; tucked under into a low yo-yo and avoided the tracking shot the la5 was developing and bringing the target closer to me. I was pretty far back; basicly coming back to an HO in a two circle fight when the La5; seeing the impending guns solution I was setting up; snapped back into the vertical.
 Dingy and I passed each other cockpit to cockpit; on the deck at the bottom of the canyon while the wily La5 was roaring up right above us. “hunh” I mumbled.. “this guys good..” Now separated from Dingy, the La5 has forgone the chance to flick over the top of the canyon rim to safety (rude was up there.. still looking for a shot at him) and he roars back down on me with a good top-down crossing shot.

This is a very uncomfortable place to be.. just about out of E and in the ditch with a hot turnfighter on the perch lining up a killing shot with kannonen… I snapped the stick back; cross controlled to get out of his plane of fire and rolled; pushing down hard as the stang got inverted. The La5 got some pings in; but nothing significant fell off and I looked back around expecting to find the la5 Yo-Yoing back onto a deep six position… but NO! He’s crossed the canyon to Dingy; now coming back in hot and fast looking for the very setup I expected the La5 to pull. Instead the la5 trims up; and dodges the HO being pressed by Dingy, he reverses and quickly saddled up on his break; crossing angles with him setting up an in trail deflection shot.

Damn.. this guy is making NO mistakes; he’s using the vertical perfectly; what shots I’ve had have been very brief; and the guy won’t settle on either of our sixes; instead he breaks and attacks the unengaged fighter when that fighter begins to press.. twice more he switches from Dingy to me and back again as we progress further and further into the canyon.  The La5 is using the terrain brilliantly.. and neither Dingy or I can stay with him as he climbs over the top on the turns against the canyon walls. Finally; I get a shot opportunity.. I’ve managed for the first time to get slightly above him and as he sees me coming to a solution I know he’s gonna try to pull over the top… so I break high early; roll away from him and pull back down.. and there he is; crossing slightly below; pinned against the canyon wall and dead in my sights. I squeeze off a quick burst.. .. I see parts fly from his tail.. he spins… it’s over.

My hands are shaking. I look at the map.. we’re at the extreme end of the canyon; almost to the end of the grid.  I typed.. “heluva fight!” And heard back ‘lucky shot”.. I agreed.. it was.   We chatted for a few moments about how he expects to see pony blood when he gets one on the canyon floor.. and I empathize completely.  In this situation with this pilot I doubt I’da come out alive if not for Dingy and Rude… again the La5 pilot made no mistakes.. not one.. and lost because he was outnumbered. No shame in that.. none at all. And I had some VERY good help. 

Salute Sorrow!

Hang


------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Remarkable dogfights over the past 2 weeks..
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2000, 03:48:00 PM »
Hi Verm!! Well thought out and presented post.. and I heartily agree.. with you.. swager and dolomite. How SO??

Well.. yes; a measure of a good combat pilot is the one that lands the kills. But!!!

Consider the old saying... "there are bold pilots.. and old pilots.. damn few old, bold pilots."

Then consider.. itsa SIM!! Hey.. I can be as bold and brash as the situation demands; and when I bite off more than i can chew; well hell; I can get a new half million dollar fighter and go at it again.  

Now when this thing goes from beta to gold and the FM's are fairly dialed in I'll no doubt start looking at the style of flying I do in a diffrent light. maybe. Then again.. maybe not.  

I guess we all go through the phase of staring at our scorecards.. and having to endure the self admonition of silly mistakes ruining our scores. All of us have heard the whining from the pilots who have wrapped themselves in the 'cloak of kills' and howl at our NERVE for blowing them outta the sky on occasion!!

Frankly; I'm currently having a blast; cutting up on line and off.. always pursuing the 'great fights'; looking for more interesting evasives and adversarys. I enjoy all this immensely.. and wouldn't trade a minute of intense furball fun for any amount of ego induced self congragulations on a 'perfect' score.

I think the yardstick to success in this sim is FUN.. the more yah have the more yah learn the more yah see the more fun yah have.

Speaking of which.. back to the wars.   Hey did you guys SEE that awsome Mutang fight Tuesday night in the canyons east of F16 between the knits and bishes?? I have no idea who I caught down there.. but 5 of em died in 4 min.. Bash and Hollywd were engaged down there and got a bunch too... Lordy that wuz a fun fight!  

Hang (salutes to the MOL! )


------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

P.S... as Dingy notes.. E kills. I prefer to retain E as much as possible.. on a high to low intercept I never reduce my e state to the level of the targets. With an E advantage I can continue to press the fight; repeating the high to low attack as often as necessary (or prudent; given the circumstances) to get the kill. I am in complete agreement with Verm.. why give the sucker an even break?  


[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-12-2000).]
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.